Conservation Commission Meeting

Speakers are labeled SPEAKER_N. This transcript is machine-generated.

Recording

Okay, Greg, can you vote for Jay tonight, please?
Start them.
Do you want to get me to buy the sake as we can't.
Barefoot?
Through sock and for sure.
Okay, I'll do.
Do you want to do that now?
Yep, I will.
I will.
I will make a motion that we approve the meeting minutes of the Sergeant Road
Walkthrough site visit of August 19, 2026.
Second.
I'll make a motion that we approve the regular set of minutes for Tuesday, August 11th, 2026.
Second.
I will make a motion that we approve the non-public meeting minutes for July 28th, 2026, and there are five sets.
Second.
I'll sign me.
You can get going, I'll sign, too.
Okay.
Okay, so first on the agenda was potential access for timber harvest of lot 876-1 to town-owned land.
We did have a site walk up there with some of the neighbors or concerned citizens on Thursday night.
It, I don't know, you want to, if you had an agenda for that night, or is that how you want to start?
For Thursday?
Yeah.
Well, let's ask, is the landowner present?
I'm sorry.
Okay.
And do you want to have him introduce the project for the public?
You have an issue to that?
No.
Just highlights, probably is.
I'm switched to Harlan.
I'm consulting for I live in Peterborough,
New Hampshire.
My address is 58 Hill Road,
Peter Brown, Hampshire.
I work for
landowner on there from the house.
And Eric Kahn asked me to look at his timber and set up a timber sale on its property.
And I did.
Turned out there is no way to access it from KC nodes.
The junction with 2.30 is really way too hazardous.
And there's something about KSO.
It's too hard.
So we intended those land there.
But, so on this alternative,
Sergeant Grove, which is a class 5 road,
and then it ends being class 5 road,
where the Brookline land starts.
That Brookline land moves
moves out of the conservation
you know, I'll move with Gatic Clause, man.
Is it, sir?
Do you speak up with a good.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Thank you.
What did you miss?
Not doing.
Go ahead.
Okay.
That, a Brookline land has a,
has a,
conservation,
but with a brook class
that there is a Saskatchewers
and so.
And, uh,
so,
so, um,
I met with the Conservation Commission two weeks ago.
And they subsequently walked the land to the Newry.
And we had gone
walked land yesterday.
And so we identified
talked about what he needed to be done to
done for the world.
Which is
some material needs to be added to it specifically
some fine material
right around the
type of milk trail.
And then
some
crushed rock
at the place where the
water comes across, it'll be
down the saddle.
And it's a saddle.
And then
there's a lot of water to
water and just dropped
up to them.
And then in several places,
there's one main
place in from wash out
and then
above that there's one of my place
seems to get a
dropout problem.
And posing to
and also we cut some trees. I made
a list of what you can be cut.
and seven
trees along the way.
I suggest that we
reimburse the
thousand for the trees of these times.
It's not very valuable,
but
definitely
$200 for the free to spend.
And
basically fix the road up
and then make sure
that the
spread of the road is
slows out.
closed out one of the guy and the range is left so it doesn't want to
off.
Okay.
Thank you.
And
by the way,
really
was not
and
there's been
supported by two
preservation
commission in
so what happened
the
decision
moving
route
with which is
on or the
correct.
Correct. That was yes,
before.
Wow.
Wow.
So, I guess
the
I guess the
usually take public comments and then
we make our comments and we make a
decision.
We go.
Go on first.
Good evening.
Madam and South the nation's commission.
I'm Conn Forals.
I reside in 32 Main Street,
but I really also reside
on Sergeant of Road.
our property is a
triangular lot and we have
front of charge the road
and that's where our primary
driveway is located.
So I'm as
interested in this proposal
as some of my neighbors who are here
tonight.
So,
I'm a lawyer
at Devine Lomette in Manchester.
My firm has done work for the town
and past, and I myself
drafted the leases for the
Long of the Pond Authority.
So I want to learn about this last week.
It was when I able to attend the
site walk, but know the area
very well. My wife's
Karen Sims and I are
radically opposed to the project.
I'm seriously
impair an important stream
crossing at the north
end of the Sergeant Road area
and collapsed the historic
hand-layed Alderick
that the south of that crossing
as you put the road both up the hill.
So I've only had a very little bit about
time to do some legal research here.
I take issue
with Mr.
statement that the
in question is not
is not a public road.
So let me hopefully put that issue
this is, I don't know how I got to this.
when you say, the area in question, do you mean
or do you mean sorry? I mean the so-called
discontinued portion of
Sergeant Roe. Okay.
I've got a town record to
hand out. Should I give it the secretary or
each one of you, I've got
plenty of values.
All right. All right. Keep you simple.
Thank you.
My friend.
I'll hear it. I'll hear it.
I'll hear it. I know. I'll go. I'll get some extra.
I'm good.
I'm for everybody.
All right. So here is
what?
Sorry. Yeah.
Okay, so this is a letter
from the selectman
back in that, look at the bottom,
May of 2023.
This with regard to proposal
due.
So, sorry.
Do that a lot. I got a little bit less in it.
So this is more than 20 years ago.
So
back then,
just after I moved to town,
there was a similar proposal in that somebody wanted to
open up that undeveloped,
un-maintained section of Sergeant Road.
we're talking about tonight to put in
a subdivision. And so this
the important thing is what's highlighted here.
The legal status of
this road is still a
public road. It is simply a
now a class 6 road,
this section of road
that has been discontinued, which means
that it's no longer. It doesn't mean
that it's no longer down a road. It simply
means the town of no duty to make
any. So that's the status
of this road. It is not
private road. So
that changes the
equation quite a bit because
as a public road, it's
the selectment that have authority over
all roads. Be they
open and maintained, in this
case, class 6
unmaintained, and they have the authority here.
So if a class 6 road exists,
yeah, which it does.
And gates and bars can be put on it.
Yeah. Public can still use that road
road with, correct? Not only can they,
they have the absolute legal right for themselves.
So if the road continued,
then would the landowner
actually have to ask permission of
any? Again, the applicant here
who wants to drive over
this under the old portion of
the start road.
But you're putting documents in here
that are, you're asserting, I should say,
that it's not a
discontinued road, that it's actually a class 6
road. It is. So therefore, it's still a public
road. It is. So therefore,
can a person in a log truck
use that row.
No, not without permission
of the selectment. And I would
say that since you folks have been involved
in this in detail,
you have an accorded advisory
rule to the selectment
on this, and
your opinion carries a long way, especially
given the fact that the other
of the unusual part of this is
the town owns
the surrounding lot
in feet. And that's
part of the trail system. You
folks have the duty to manage that
trail system. So you need to be engaged
on this. But this is a select
road issue. And
the fact that, you know, I know this
area well, I went there for almost
20 years, walk that area
probably on a monthly basis.
There is a very
active stream cross. Right at
that north end, I'm a call it, of the
area in question. And
the water's flowing. It may not be
flowing now. It would
that'll approve. But it is
a stream crossing. And
normally, you need
a DES wetlands permit
and you have to go through that
whole approval process to do
something like the applicant wants
to do here. And
so there are those issues.
I don't think it's a
school crossing that's
related to
run out from
rain.
that crosses
it's where they can
know the same crossing
it doesn't
go any other screens
with a vision
I'm not sure I agree
and I think we should look at a top of map
see if that
lifted as a stream.
I don't know if it has an eye
I don't think.
Well, we're not
we're not going to
Yeah, we're not
we're taking in.
So if I could, again,
just on this point,
this is the excerpt from
the
excerpt from the
New Hampshire
hard broke its travel book
it's by the Municipal Association
and this again
tells you the
the status of the road
that the
still will follow the road.
So
my concern
and I think my neighbors
as well is
who benefits from this
other than the
land of him?
And to what degree does he
has any right to
burden the rest of the
neighborhood by,
especially if you live down
at that end,
completely cutting up their
lawns, but also
having this, I
say, important
ecological issue of the
stream cost.
Again, we can have
BES look at
whether that's a perennial
stream, even if it isn't,
it's a weapon. And the
Department of Environmental Services is very
protective
of weapons. They'll allow you to
work in a wet one.
In this case, put in,
I don't know what it's going to require, but I would think
at a minimum it's going to require a culvert
to do this.
And then if folks saw it carefully,
the public column was pointed
out on the, on the
lock-go, there's a very
old hand-laid
culvert a little further
up the hill, if you will, further south
on this section.
And I can only assume that
a logging truck will fully loaded
going to collapse that culvert.
And, you know, for what end?
The only thing
I hear is a conclusory,
oh,
it's impossible to use
the Casey Road exit. Well,
why?
I think it's incumbent on
the applicant and you
folks to ask that hard question.
Why is that the case?
And why is, you mentioned
that portions of Casey Road
were also unsuitable for the
lot of the truck. Why?
And, you know, isn't there
some kind of workaround where they did
harvest the timber,
leave it in the yard, and then
hire a cop for
two hours and have a whole
raft of trucks, get it all on at
once, as opposed to
burdening my neighborhood
for a month
or more with logging trucks
going up and down the road,
simply because it's easier
and more than, you know,
it's more class-effective for this.
And I'd go back to the further exchange, which is
it is a right to log of land
in the abstract.
Sure. But at the expense
of all the neighborhood, in
our opinion, unnecessarily,
we don't think that's an adequate
balancing of the rights
and that responsibility. So
I and my wife, and I think
a lot of folks in the thought
in a minute would
urge you to, in my
analysis, recommend
to the selectmen
that they deny the request.
So we'll allow this section of
the last section, Sergeant Road,
fill a public road, to be used
for the requested purpose.
Thank you. William, I'm Lee,
for T.C. Road. I'm on the other end of
the sergeant that we're talking about running through.
I'm not complaining about that.
I would ask, if you all would check on
the validity of the status of that road,
because I asked Todd a couple
years ago about that, and I thought
sent me a letter saying back in 1956,
they turned that property back
over the property owners.
So right, Han owns half of that
and I own the other half
of Sergeant
that runs into Casey. That's my drive one.
So
just ask if you to check
a little check on it and my check in the problem.
And by Todd, you mean Todd
Croto?
Todd.
Tad Puttony or Todd?
Sorry, Ted Putney.
There was a Todd that
was the public work director for period.
That's why I...
You can all imagine it can be in a
next.
Next.
Barbara Boyle, Sergeant
Rose.
I attended
the first walkthrough,
and thank you very much
on letting us know.
I would like to know if
Sahan property,
I hope I'm saying that right,
Mr. Hahn,
is the deed,
does his deed say
that he has
easy access?
through any of this conservation,
the Brookline Town
conservation land.
I'm considering myself as
an owner of the land
where he's pulled out
Brookline to Hampshire
and he's the owner of his land.
So this is a talk
between two owners.
There's just more here.
But is there a
he that says that
and
if not, would
be allowed access because of the voice of the timber industry.
I would like to tell
a lot what Mr. Coral said.
Are there other alternative
routes? Are there other
strategies to use?
Did they use smaller
trucks? Could they cut the lumber
differently to make the access out of
T.C. safer?
That's my opinion.
Thank you.
This is Ann Watt,
13 size
and broke. This couple
questions for you. There's a
timber jack, and that's made
on the stumpage, I guess, with the
word, and that goes
to the town. And
my name's Kristen, you can help with this, I bet you can.
Why does that go to general
fund, and then did it get transferred to
the commission, or was that
slavery to commission?
We don't see any of the
stumpage money.
Say that again?
None of the stumpage money comes to the
conservation commission.
all save generals, I believe.
Yes.
It does.
It stays in the...
Yes.
Okay, you should never do.
Sorry, yes.
Then,
you're told, and thank you
for coming tonight.
And so, and you're going to
do you have
contact with Mr.
No?
Fourth order.
Pardon?
Forth order.
In fact, right.
Oh, okay, both sides.
I know, is so
part of my job, obviously,
you know, your job.
It's filed in this
time of the time of it.
Exactly.
And, and
And we understand
slash rules and stuff.
I'm concerned that this does
get permitted for whatever reason
that it's not
the land not be damaged
in the same way as
the trail was
damaged that went from
he was right all the way
from Dr. Hill Road
as Rocky Pondro and
gout a horse along it
and not so long that it
was unusable again.
So that was that was a sad thing.
I'm concerned
for the commission
just the latest
there's a lot
of town conservation
women up there obviously
and maybe the town
might someday want to
log their own
town's way and
what I fear is that this will
become the thoroughfare
for not just Mr. Hahn's property
and Mr. Hans's been big proponents
as you all know from
of the Conservation Commission all these years.
He's been to be.
you know, very active.
I know that I've spoken to myself.
So it's not about Mr. Hahn,
but I'm a little bit more concerned
about any logging that goes,
you can look at the map and there's a vast
amount of openly
end up there, and that's not
just the town that might ask for
that access
through my house,
by my house.
And I said 13, sorry, I wrote, I mean not.
But
it may be everybody else that owns a
that's inconvenient to go out
to Stott's Hell or Hobart Hill
Road if you look at the map,
there's a lot of land out there.
And I fear that
a precedent would be set.
That's my concern to you
with the precedent of allowing
the access through.
Would you then be required to allow
access to do
for other property
owners to come
through? Hey, it's downhill and it's
straight out Sergeant Road. You just have to go north
through down, right? You can't
turn that hair can turn at Mr.
Paul's house. There's no way
to log truck with him to be able to make that.
I can barely make it himself on another
camper trailer on, you know?
So I just am concerned about
this precedent that that would
say
I don't like the idea of having
what we understood was
17 loads of gravel, that's
34 loads, you know, trucks going
back and forth. And
log truck after log
track. Do we limit this?
Could they be possibly calling tandem
log trucks? Is there
a length limit to the logs
that they may take?
Will the weight of two log
trucks crush a culvert?
The
what we walked over the other day,
I couldn't ride my horse over
when we went up.
We were toward that
land because of a horse is what would go
through those rocks. So those rocks,
they've got big holes underneath them.
I expect water may run underneath that.
I don't know. I haven't been out there, but I
do remember my neighbor Tim
saying his dog would swim in the water
that was on either side, you know,
on the side of the road.
Okay.
I'm not going to miss it.
So I am concerned, again,
about a culvert and, you know, that's a
big construction project.
It's Mr. Hahn ready to undertake that.
Would the town in some way be required
once they gave permission to
actually provide the access
by building, you know,
culverts and runoffs, would they
be required to
return
the land to
conservation's appropriate
condition if
Mr. Kahn
was somebody who was not able to
continue the project.
So
there are a couple things. Generally,
I don't like it, but I
thought that in my New Hampshire
RSA,
landlock lots may have access
for law unions, so I want to bear about
it, but I also think that
conservation positions really advocate and ensure
that they may have
to scale back the
fast and huge nature of what
they do and do with smaller portions
with shorter laws.
Anyway, I was up.
Thank you. Thank you.
Mark Norden, 16, Sergeant Rose.
My concern is primarily, in addition to the
concern that's been raised already is primarily
a safety issue. There's a half dozen
school-aged children on Sajit
Road that are routinely driving their bikes
up and down the road. There are numerous
equestries that use Sajit Road
to get to the trail system at the end of
Sajat Road. And my concern
is just with trucks going up and down the road
that typically aren't going up and down
on Sajer Road because they're dead end, how
that would change to just the nature
of absence of people that normally do use
the road for either, you know,
walking, having, or
for the subway.
Additionally, I don't think
the access to, in terms of getting
from Route 130
for Sajat Road would be any easier
that it would be getting onto Route
1.30 from Tisi Road.
If you're heading west on Route
130, you have to basically make
180-degree turn to get on
on Sondon Road. And I can see that
being very difficult.
In Sash Road, in most cases,
is one power we're narrow.
And, you know,
any kind of turn is coming down.
If you're going down, say,
you're going to the west end of the road,
you have to back up because only one
time can get by at a time.
If, you know, 18 wheel is going up and down
really, it's going to be, it's going to
compound the problem.
Thank you.
I can't find 20th,
road, and if you follow up, you think,
nothing for us. I just want to be clear about that.
But in addition, all of these things, and the
is there are children, they be right,
we all pretty much leave the house to go to work,
kids have to get school. I have no
understanding of how
the timing is, what the
process is, what's going to look like.
Those are a lot of my questions.
Like, if this goes on, when does it start,
when does it end? Are there
breaks? Are we going to be able to get in an hour
of our driveways, are service
that is going to be able to be
get, you know, like if something
happens on the road, will we have
access to emergency services.
Like we said, the road is very narrow, unfortunately.
But I've had to drive halfway down the road,
backwood, multiple times in the quite years we lived here.
Just with another party, then people don't observe the
speed limit either. And especially, people that don't know the road
and don't know that there are dogs, past, chickens,
horses, moose, beer, all of that point of stuff.
I'm just concerned about
the quality of the road, what's going to happen to the road,
the quality of that, and for the people that live there,
how will we negotiate all of that safely?
We do also have young children that have moved on the road
that we obviously want each page as well.
So those are to find questions in addition to all of these other things,
and nothing.
Thank you.
Sure.
Tom, Green, 18, sorry.
When I first heard about this, of course, I was concerned about the dust, the safety, the noise,
the inconvenience, every fall of that.
But now I'm a little more concerned about the conservation land itself.
And one of the first things I thought is that you guys seen posture as meetings.
to make imposter to accept and allow this.
And I was wondering, are you fearing a lawsuit if he was refused?
That's a question.
Is that in anybody's mind?
Not on my mind, okay.
So does the person on the person on
on, does he have any ground, do you know, do you know, does he have any ground two suit?
I'm not a lawyer.
There's one in the room, but I don't think there would be ground.
So we don't know of any.
If he could show us something, then that's a different sort.
So if he can't show us any, and we have to understand that Mr. Hahn is a commercial situation.
He's in it for the common.
For private, he's in into the common.
So this is a commercial operation.
That's understood.
He's trying to make money.
I understand he has two last right.
Now,
Another thing is, so this would be a courtesy to allow, unless you have to have to have something or something.
But also, I found out that the Piscata flat nature conservatory has also been given the authority to weigh in on these things, right?
Right?
But they haven't been given, they have it, they have the least.
Pardon?
They have.
And that easement gives them quite a lot of control, I believe.
It does.
Right.
So they would be the authority that might be the ones that could allow this.
Is that correct?
It is.
The authority isn't in your lap.
It's in their lap, I believe.
You're nodding.
You agree?
That's what I agree.
What I have looked into is.
That's, that is.
That easement, are they, that's not easement, what is it?
Yes, conservation usement.
Conservation usement. Thank you. So they are the ones that control it.
And if you look at their, there is like this.
Yeah.
My wife said this up or actually.
I'm with him.
This is very, very strict on usage, and it said no commercial usage could be put forward for
for allowing transport this long.
Yep.
Yes, so you looked at them?
Yeah.
So you really want to be a little more than perhaps you are.
But I can speak a little bit to where you're heading with the conservation aspect.
And well, what my concern is, is your change.
the character of the land in disagreement to what this charter says.
I also agree with Jan because you might be setting a precedent.
So, for instance, that's 800, 1,000 feet you're asking for that allowance to come through there.
I don't know what the past distance is.
But what if that area hasn't been open, would they be allowed to go all the way to Hobart Hill?
Because those roads are.
hospitals, you know? So there's a precedent that you have to avoid. And these are my concerns
is that, you know, maybe you don't have the authority to just rent this. And you're letting one
individual make money. And there are other ways to get it out. And Oregon, they use helicopters
get three out. So putting that out there, but I would be opposed to granting this alone.
Thank you.
Do you want to speak still?
Well, I'll just see if anything else.
Okay.
You were going to say something about that?
So, you know, and it pairs a little bit with what Tom mentioned in the very beginning,
and that the question was, why should we do this from a resource perspective?
Why are we facilitating an individual who wants to do the cut?
I'm not certain that it's an economically driven cut.
You know, there are many landowners who choose to do ten,
management for other reasons. The health of the forest, wildlife management,
a number of other things. You know, and one of our tasks is to steward the resources of the
tent. And one of the things in New Hampshire is, those are a great deal of land that's forested.
And it's forested because landowners have the ability to make some revenue on that, you know.
So we're actually the second most forest state in the country by percentage of land.
And part of that reason is because landowners can derive revenue from them.
So I started a place that wants to facilitate sustainable, well-managed timber.
Because if you don't allow landowners to make some money on their land, it may be able to make.
They may grow houses. That's an alternative use for the land. So I start from a process of
if it's well managed, if they have a forester, and the intent is good, that I will make reasonable
accommodations to allow it to happen. That's my personal, I don't know what everyone else here. I sit
on the board of a statewide organization that has forestry as part of their mission. You know,
they're one of the largest private landowners in the state and part of the money that
sustains their organization is through timber management. They own a lot of land on Mount
Monadnach. They've managed that for a century, right? I'm sure many of you have visited Manadnach.
You may not have realized that 4,000 acres of it is being managed by this organization and has been for
100 years. So I start from a process of if it's well planned out, if it has a forester engaged,
I want to make reasonable accommodations for that to happen. Now, the question was whether
we're setting a precedent so that one individual asks us for access, can we go clear cut through
to get to the other side of Hobart? I don't think that's the case. You know, I think we need to look
at it as a case-by-case scenario. Let's see, some of the other questions. We have not researched
Or we couldn't comment on the
Right. So that's in their
wheelhouse in terms of what's being asked is
an easement for a third party
to access across the land. You know that you would be
dealing with them and ask that. Correct. They've already been involved and they
want to hear our opinion. They can make their own independent decision
and it's not going to be a public hearing, right? But they're taking in
input from us and making their own decision. And I will say that they're similar
organization and that they do also do timber management on their own properties. So I think
they too are in a position where if it's well thought out, if it has a licensed forester
that has a forestry plan involved, they're likely to want to find a way to do it.
Because just like I said, we enjoy a vast percentage of foresters.
land in our state because private land owners do have the ability to do something.
Okay. Just say one more thing. Yep.
We're also a member of the New Hampshire Associates the Conservation Commission.
The town is a member, yep. The town is a member. Yep.
And I don't know if my wife contacted them and told them what we thought this was about.
And the person we spoke to was quite clear that
doesn't seem to be in character with what they're recommending.
They say that they have a good relationship with the founder book,
and you guys, I suppose, that you call them and ask for advice
and things like that occasionally. It's very much with you, I guess.
But they were not too positive about allowing this.
Did you, do we have a coffee and forth was spent?
I'm not going to speak with that. I, you know, they are a resource for.
us? Would you do use on occasion?
Right. That's when they are. It's just an environment.
Yep.
Second question was whether the landowner has described right in their deed.
We have not done a research of that, nor do I entail to do that.
I think if they did, they would have asserted that.
So my assumption is they don't have anything there that guarantees it, because if they did,
that's the lever they'd pull.
One other thing is that I'm not.
but if I may like to ask the questions.
What is the length of the logs you're expecting to pull out of there?
Why can you not make that burn at the S&P on 3-130?
The big truck.
I make, their big trust.
Yeah, I'm not going to.
But, you know, it's different ways.
Yes, you can tell a law.
I'm not going to hide behind what I'm going to hide behind what I'm going to tell you.
I'm going to tell you.
as it is.
We use big trucks.
And we're allowed to use public roads.
Class five roads, we're allowed to use them just like the oil truck.
We're allowed to use it just like Amazon truck.
Whip up and down the streets.
We're allowed to use them just like anybody.
No, just like a motorcycle, just with a bicycle, just with a bicycle, just with a car.
Right?
We're a truck.
We're allowed to use those roads.
Class six roads, public roads.
The town doesn't take care of the road.
The town, they're left in the town's current,
but the town doesn't take care of them.
It's up to us to make the roads good enough to use.
You're talking about the class six roads?
Right.
Of the road.
Right.
Most towns, we don't ask for permission to use classes roads.
I simply recognize that this was a very contentious area, and I felt that it was a good idea to bring this conversation to the public.
That's why we asked.
I wouldn't have asked for permission, except for a very good idea, because this is, we're going with Classics Road,
and then going on a few,
class five roads and go into the last six.
Sorry, I got wound up.
I'm not really a good debater, but...
This isn't a debate, let's be clear.
That's also...
You mean, normally you wouldn't have to ask for any permission
to open up a flow of road.
And...
If it's class six, it's subject to gates and bars,
but you can't...
Right.
Yes.
We can't use an electric bike out there.
I'm going to hold on a little bit here.
I'm going to hold on a little bit here.
There's a question.
Mr. Quarles raised the very beginning of whether the extension is in class six or not.
I'm not going to necessarily weigh in on that.
In general, a class six road exists all over the state of New Hampshire.
You're allowed to put what's called gates and bars, but you can't lock them.
You can't prohibit the public from taking off the little clip or whatever it is, opening the gate,
and driving through as if it was an open road without a gate there.
That's true all over the state.
For all plastic roads.
Correct.
So all of us are going to be driving up and down.
Yes, which.
Plastics roads are used that way.
And run up and down those roads?
Again, there's a question mark of whether this road is a class six that Mr. Porold is.
But if in general, if there is, you know, a generic plastic's road in Mason
that has gates and bars, you are allowed to drive.
on that if you have a legally registered vehicle that is allowed to be on any other public roadway.
So when the document that we looked at said that they closed that road, is that the closing just transfers it from a five to a six?
So there is, there's another, we're getting into very lot of generalities.
There's also a process of abandonment where they say we're no longer going to use this as in a road.
We're going to abandon it.
In which case, it reverts to the two landowners that are on either side, or it may be one landowner that owes all around it.
So, again, though, those are distinctions that are not necessarily in the purview of this group.
If it is a Class 6 road, there is already sort of a vested right to use it for the public.
There's a question mark of whether he needs to ask permission from the select board to
maintain a portion of it. But the access portion, if, if it's a class six, he does not
have to get permission to that. And as an example for that, if you head out North Mason Road,
which heads out to the recycling sector, on the right-hand side is Hutchinson Hill Road. Right.
Turn right on Hutchinson Hill Road. Yeah. And when you get to the dirt, right. That becomes a
class six road. Okay. Lock it in four-wheel drive, and your next stop is Milford.
Right.
It's been said that Sergeant Road from the end of the Class 5, the Kesee Road is a Class 6 road.
Lock it in gear and go.
But not up to anybody that picks it for your bicycle, if you're right.
And I'm not claiming that this gentleman is right or wrong.
And I'm not going to turn this into a debate all night long because it's pit-for-tat.
The only other thing is-in-asked.
Rather, someone who has not spoke.
You've already spoke plenty.
But I just asked one question.
Can I hear for you, please?
Matt Byron, 22, Sergeant.
I just want some certifications where the alleged Class Vick Road actually is.
I just moved in the area a week ago.
What number? What number?
22.
So when you head down Sartisan Road and you get to where the trees are in the road and it's all brushed over, that's the end of the Class 5 road.
So this is the same one.
Rory lives on the right-hand side, and then Oskine lives on the left.
I suggest we move past the concept of question mark of whether or not it's a class six road, because that, again, it's not going to be anything that this body gets to weigh in on.
Who determines you? Can I speak?
I'd like to react to some of this.
Yes.
All right. So, again, I told you. I learned about this last Wednesday. I've done a small amount of legal research.
I presented that selectman letter from Mark,
May 27th.
You're getting up on Mr. Quarles?
It says
it's a class six road.
I'm not sure I still
agree with that. What this
says is it's discontinued.
Correct. Okay?
If it said it was discontinued
subject to gates and bars,
then that would mean
it's still a class six road for that
some 900 feet. And that's
a huge difference.
Okay? As you alluded to,
and because to try to get out,
if I explain this clearly, if it's discontinued
entirely, it is no longer
in public. And as you, like they said,
it reverts to the
adjacent plan owners on either side
of the center line. Oh, we
own now. Of the, yeah, I understand that
of either side of the
of the discontinued section.
You tell me, is that entirety
the town owned lot?
My
basis from moving forward
is that the town owns that land,
that the management authority
rests with the Conservation Commission.
The PLC holds the conservation easement
over top of that, that it's
no longer a class six row.
It's a
abandoned section. So you
can't put it in four-wheel drive, as buddy said,
and drive to the other
ending. So my suggestion would be this.
I ask Chris Bresher
the town attorney for that
opinion, because I think that's an important
distinction that you need to make.
But nevertheless,
I still, you know,
I still don't get, well,
let me, I'll make this comment.
If it, if in fact, it is not
a Class 6 road,
then this body
has even more authority
as to whether to allow this
this, and you certainly,
the landowner certainly needs
this body's absolute provision
because you're the manager
and owner of that piece,
including the road,
to do what he wants to do. And I still don't get
why he has to do
this. The bluster about,
oh, Amazon, this is like
an Amazon delivery truck? Of course it
is. You know, it's
10 times bigger and
weighs 10 times as much.
Again,
I'm really so sorry for my
neighbors at the end of the road. If that's that nice
logs, they're going to be obliterated.
And I still am concerned
about this stream crossing.
I mean, why don't, you know, I'd like you to ask
the applicant here
why he's not going to irreparably harm
that road,
whether it's a public road or not,
and this trail system, because
he's got to do something about that stream crossing
and the culvert. Is he going to
adequately rebuild those
after his 17th?
truckload of the gravel?
I just don't understand
the cost-benefit analysis
here. And for all your general
wise statements about,
well, we like forestry, this is great.
I don't disagree.
But let's not do it on the
backs of this entire
neighborhood, which is
used to and entitled to, a
a nice dead end road
near the compact center of town.
But the unique situation,
we're very lucky to have it. We're
We want to conserve it, and that's why
we're here tonight. It should be preserved.
It's Swiff.
Yeah, a few things.
We've said
in a standard way
we put in
the minimum impact
or as we know the big, it's just the levels.
So,
yeah,
yeah,
do it all the time.
I'll put one of those in.
We looked at it. We
looked at that crossing and we said,
but probably not enough
drop
or pulver in there.
It's kind of a seedy,
flowy thing that
totally dries up.
It's not a, it's not a
to what's there now.
It's this saddle of
stone, and
we're just going to build it up.
To the
culvert that you're talking about,
the ancient culvert.
It's not functioning to washout
bypasses it
and no water flows through it
at all. It's there
but it's not. It's not
functioned. What we're going to do is
we're going to cover it with stone
which will be tactile
and I'm going to put stone in the
area that
spray to be low it.
But
I'm not here.
I didn't
think it was class 6th
road. I thought
the town of Brookline
owned it
to the middle of the road
on both sides
from the land on both sides.
So I came assuming
that I need to get permission
from the town of Brookline.
That's why I'm here.
I wouldn't even be here
at the Plastics Road.
Okay.
And then I also want to just point
to a lot of the
Timberland and it's
Association.
path. I don't know exactly
what it was, but
it's called
the right to farm
and right to harvest law.
The process they are called from
forestry operations.
I'm necessarily local
mooseants lawsuits and both really restrictive
municipal ordinances.
It safeguards
standard commercial farming and forestry,
timber harvesting practices.
If they follow
accepted management standards,
prevents neighbors from suing and legally operating a legally operating farm or a timber harvest just for normal noise, dust and owners. Local ordinances limits towns from banning standard agricultural or harvesting activities through the local regulations still apply. The local regulations still applying regarding public health and safety.
It's just passed because the nature of
towns in southern New Hampshire has made it harder to practice forestry
in places where there's still forests to be matched.
And it's when you speak of precedence, precedence.
Forestry has precedents in the state.
There was Tapley, Bingham, Lord and Lumber, right around here.
And those, those, those mills,
those mills have closed up because of inability to do business.
I mean, there are other economic factors that close those mills.
But forestry is a really important part of what this, the nature of southern New Hampshire,
and central New Hampshire and northern New Hampshire, as you said, it's a forest state.
So somehow forestry needs to be protected by laws like this from this, this kind of, this kind of discussion.
So I don't know what's going to happen, but I think it's really important that a law like this is on the books.
They got a way into this property, a practical way.
Mr. Hahn is owns land abiding the road.
So he owns when abutting Casey Road and this road.
And he should be able to access his timber on this public way.
And it's not a public way through permission granted from somebody's land.
One quick comment.
Why can't he hire police detail to have after he.
You yarded all these logs, spent an half an hour or an hour getting them out of the case.
So one of the things that we're being asked is whether this is a reasonable request.
And we're going to deliberate here in a few minutes about that.
It was raised that he can hire a helicopter and pull the timber.
That's not always.
Exactly.
So it's going to be up to this committee to debate and discuss whether this is a reasonable request,
knowing that there's PC and it has its own practical limitations.
anyone who's driven up there can understand that there are limitations to it.
It's a paved road that's crumbling with steep curves and a difficult exit 0130.
I'm fully understanding that at the end of sergeant, going one direction, it's easy, going the
other direction, it's hard.
That's going to be up to the entities that do the timber harvest to manage that.
if we grant them and if PLC grants them.
But what we are being asked to do is say, is this a reasonable request given the interests
that we've been tasked with managing for the town.
I simply like to answer that question.
That's a reasonable alternative.
I'm really not going to ask him, are you going to hire somebody?
You don't have to hire anybody.
His drivers, I'm sure, are safe.
They don't have to stop the stop sign.
They look both ways.
You can think you're getting a little.
back to the box, please.
Yeah.
Yeah, fine, my first group.
The other questions are from a statement.
The road becomes very terrible in the freight.
So we have a lot of, like, divvets and, I guess, washouts and things like that.
So that is also a concern for the truck coming down and using the road.
So between the.
that and potential damage to Sergeant Road itself.
How will Sergeant Road be maintained and taking care of?
Because I'm not sure about that.
And I'm concerned, too, when it is raining and the weather is terrible and all the pressure
coming down the road, like, how we negotiate safely if this were to.
I mean, just some question.
I had spoke to Scott Leard, which is the DPW director, and he was.
going to go and give it all of them, make his steps and all that.
Is that something that we can also be a part of?
And we probably acknowledge. I mean, yeah.
Barbara Boyle, Plagick Road,
um, I did listen to what you had to say about the timber industry.
And I know it had a big presence in the history and it has a big history in the
temperature. The world changes.
Things do change.
In terms of priorities and needs, I know healthy forests are important.
I know housing is important to support people in a community, so you have to balance that.
You're talking about courtesy and right of Mr. Hahn, and I hear that.
He has a right to use the road to harvest his product, his crop.
I feel like I have certain rights in terms of facing enjoyment,
being a resident of this town.
And there are many of us on the road, so there are more than one Mr. Hahn on Sergeant Rose.
I look at your mission statement for your Conservation Commission,
and it's very eloquent.
It's one sentence.
It talks about enjoying open spaces.
And I'm for, for, for,
for all of us.
I voted for every parcel of land that you put forth in this town.
I feel a little bit, it's out.
Like a little, I don't want to say betrayed, because nobody told me, I never asked.
I bear responsibility for that.
I never asked to say, what could possibly happen if landed at the end of that spur on Sergeant
Rose.
So I bear responsibility to that ignorance.
But I feel a little bit, because it wasn't brought to my attention often when I
voting to buy these parcels.
And I want to keep on voting to buy more land.
But I'm a little troubled.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Matt Cairn, 22, Sergeant.
Just wondering what the impact would be on, like, trail system, especially if someone with no system.
So that would be minimal in that if you weren't at the site walk, I don't believe.
So if you walk from the end of Sergeant, you walk in the, what, 20 yards before you eat the trail,
if you were to continue perpendicular across the trail, it would use an older sergeant,
and I'm sure it's been used for logging in the past, but, so the only impact to the trail
is the first 20 to 30 yards of a spur, and then it crosses the trail at a perpendicular level.
So there's not really, I don't believe there's a strong impact to the trail system as it exists.
I would agree with that.
I suggest you take a couple and close the public.
So I'd be two hands up.
In the back?
Go ahead.
here on my point right around question about organization and offense that's probably right
right so started a road is not wrong and i'm curious about got more than one truck
of sitting in the table and it's like i don't think you can get two trucks side outside i know
this is in a long place that i think that has on the road so i'm very curious about i think it comes
to what you said earlier it's like i didn't deal with how we do the deal with you like if i try to get somewhere
in the logging truck from them down.
I'd definitely be the following where my name is traveling.
and I can do that.
You can't do that in the logging truck.
So I'm very curious how you forward me between
how do you forward me bringing me truck in and out
and not having the same fact bottom on that long load.
I've had the liby's on the road, but at someone's house.
And they've had the back up an AC Reeler all the back off with
rows because they can't have to do things to turn around.
I know that you're not turning around on a road
and that's obviously not a way to turn around in the logging about
just curious how you're going to be out.
It's all coming away now.
The same way we always forenate on class five road.
We're currently logging on the back end of Greg Lake in Anfram.
There's a road called Greg Lake Road, which winds around.
around is a beach. There's many people using those lake houses.
And we have about six bucks a day coming out of that area and slowly going,
accommodating the traffic there, letting it pass.
It's not a problem because these people that grab these stuff are
situational aware.
aware to what they're doing. And they know they're in a neighborhood.
They're not going to go through it like Milan.
No, I understand. No, I'm not asking about that. I'm just saying. No, I'm not asking about
like, you get to the trail, it's pretty peaceful, right?
From there, up.
Not even the trilet. Let's say you're standing at the end of the current starting look, right?
You've got a truck that's up there, and you've got another truck to you that won't come up there.
Right? You can't do that, right?
because there's a big truck.
They're conversing on radio.
Okay, so there's no, like, I can't see an accident as a place on Thunder Road
where you could have two of your trucks at any one, right?
So, you know, the stage one somewhere are two versions and then radio.
So that's all nasty, because I want to understand, like, as she brought,
I don't want to get a trap on my own road for 30 minutes.
I get that, like, four times a year when you're grading the road,
and I'm stuck on my road.
Yeah, three fall down, the N-Ball down the N-
can't get out and we're yeah so so can the Amazon truck come they're not
person right thank you thank you yes her husband thank you yes sir yes sir
um sound free with all the respect I don't think you've answered my earlier
question you have big truck now if someone else was logging that could they use
trucks that accommodate shorter log that could easily get down KC and exit KC with a big
fanfare probably not probably probably probably smaller I would love to use a smaller
operation but smaller operations aren't really profitable at all economically
and then so okay so it's either big truck
or it's not worth essentially.
And I was asked the Conservation Commission,
if you go ahead with it, we heard 15 to 17 loads to get the rocks up.
I put that out there at the Conservation Commission meeting without knowing how many.
Right, I understand.
But we're just talking about upgrading the roads, the trucks are going in there.
We're not talking about the water.
That's the upgrade, right.
So that's the upgrade.
15, 17 trucks, whatever it is.
And they all, I forgot you mentioned two truckloads a day of loss going down for about a month.
Is that about, right, what you were presenting?
I think so whatever you agree to, is there a limit?
Is there a time limit?
Is there a number of gravel truck limit?
Is there a number of total truck limits or trucks per day?
Or will there shouldn't be?
Well, where's the guarantee?
This is a, this is an agreement, right?
Does it get reduce the right in or in the number?
I don't think there be more than three, but it could be more than three, but it might be four.
But there you go, four for a month or two months.
There's a, okay.
A subset of timber out there and as simple as the right to harvesting.
law says. It protects people that are using the
that are logging or filing to be able to do their job without
restriction. Without what? Without restriction. Well, okay.
But if that's the way you want to accept this agreement,
who will I have to say? Thank you. I have a question.
Hi, I'm Libby County on seven side of room. And
when you get accepted, when you're planning on starting this, because my question is,
you're doing the 55 housing on 130, and they're going to be coming in, and I think they start
in October with their trucks. We've got school buses. We're going to have these trucks coming
into 50,000 over building over there. So how is that going to interfere with your truck coming?
It won. Do you have a projected start date, though?
I don't know. That's a short answer. I think that's a fair.
I felt it was for important to get everything set and all the ducks in a row before you even have a contract or look at this project.
I would suggest we should close the public aspect. Thank you very much for coming.
You can certainly listen to us debate. It was not discussed. So I kind of previewed my response.
Somewhat, I've been involved.
with other organizations for two decades that have done forestry as part of their
conservation work. I think it's a collaboration that, as I said before, helps keep forests
as forests. And that's something that if we can keep it as a forest, it doesn't become a house.
And that's from a conservation hat that's important. I understand affordable housing is a different
topic to discuss, but that's not within our purview. So I think the
essential question to us is whether this is a reasonable request. We've done the
sitewalk. We've been up PC before accessing our property at the end that way. So it really comes
down to whether we bless this in terms of making a recommendation that is a favorable one to PLC
to see whether they go forward with it. After the sitewalk, I am inclined to support it. I am inclined to support it. I
I'm not going to gloss over that there will be an impact to the neighborhood. No matter which
end the timber comes out, there will be an impact to a neighborhood and town infrastructure. I think
that's unavoidable if it goes forward at all. If I were the landowner, I'd be looking for the same
access. It's essentially a straight shot from the end of a Class 5 road to the land.
D.C. is not that way. It would be difficult to get to it. So I'm inclined to support it.
And addressing one other thing that we heard, I thought I was fairly vocal throughout the years at town meeting in that at some point in time, the town would pivot to be doing some of their own timber management and timber harvesting on town property.
If you attended the town meeting last year, we actually established a revolving
fund so that any town-owned land that we manage, if we have it harvested for timber,
that money goes back into our side of the budget to support the work that we do. As you remember,
the town cut one of our funding sources that had been the land use change tax. Current use is another
topic we could get into that helps keep forest and forest, but that's a different night. So I think
it's a reasonable request. I'm inclined to vote. So I think, yes, it's a reasonable
request. I mean, why not? No request is not reasonable. However, my issue here is,
is that how is Kesey Road not reasonable? That's my issue. Yes, and so the road is a straight
shot, easy, peasy, in and aloe. Let's drive over town land, get in there, right?
But, Kesee Road crosses the man's land. He gets a free ride because he gets a free ride because he gets
to use our land to get in. He wants this for himself. It's his deal. Why is Kesee Road?
off the table. I think
it's his deal.
We should use
his own property or his own access
to his land. That's what I think.
Oh, well, I have to go.
Sorry.
No, no.
You know,
we have other properties out in
the Pond of Bartel,
better land off by
down when. I think
what would be a reasonable quest on there. That would involve a lot more truckloads of gravel and a lot of looking at this project and speaking with PLC and being on board with them. And I know PLC has had their legal team look at this as their concerns and everything is there. And walking with Dan, especially with the things that have been mentioned prior.
and associate with PLC is
the questions I had were very similar to a lot of these questions that were answered
pretty well in the sense that
what would we do on our own land if we were wanting it ourselves
especially land that has a PLC you know
we're always going to have to have our ducks in a row. We're always going to have to make sure
we follow best force your practices. And even if we were to do it ourselves, even if we were to do it
If I were the landowner, I would probably be in the same position where I'd be asking a question to as a student.
And I'd also work at the economic factors of going out KC and then you think of the economic factors that go into even the road upgrades.
Those have to get paid for and they get paid for out of the end game, which is the problem.
So everyone takes a lot of the problem.
So everyone takes a loss somewhere.
Are there gains to this?
I can see some gains for our future,
just as if we could see upgrades to any of our trails to gain access to places.
So stewing on this a lot, it's I personally would be in favor of allowing this action.
Just putting myself in other shoes, I understand.
and the road concerns in that.
And those are things we live with every day.
You know, there's pond dam having to drive by that every day with that construction constantly on a tight
line term.
They didn't have police.
They had their own detail.
And they made it work just as any construction companies work in tight areas.
And I think with that and then with the support of PLC, if they are in favor of this, then
At the end of the day, TLC is, they hold the easement.
And if they have something against it,
I'm sure they would let us know by now.
By the people who are
to listen to the last meeting
are concerned about the impact of the crime
to start to melt them.
And I think we're sort of coming forward
that the material put on the trail is going to
out of people watching for them, just going to make it more robust.
And we can manage with signage three or four trucks going by to let people know that
when a truck stop and wait for it.
So I'm very concerned that
that we would be setting
equipment for disallowing it in that one of our
one of our key tenants on managing the conservation land
is to manage the forest health.
So we will be forced to be forest development.
We will be poor with Fobar Cassidy and Whitcomb Blots.
I mean, to not, in my mind, the revenue from now, the revenue from now is secondary
the fourth film.
So I don't believe that we're by allowing this timber on site, but I don't believe that we're, by allowing this timber on foot.
cut in this area, that we're essentially identifying a super-highway that all timber
harvents in Hobart system and it's going to go through.
No, it will go through whatever access road is necessary, wherever the timber harvesting is going to look.
We have coke road.
We have rocky pond roof. We have sod cowgirls. Those are all access points with getting wronged. We don't have any plants to harvest and
over the second than yet, but we will. And I'm concerned about, you know, we'll be having the same meeting, kind of meeting again if we decide to do this.
on conservation.
Anyway, so I'm in favor.
But you're not going to be asking to cross private land.
We may.
We may very well ask to cross private land.
Okay.
I disagree with that statement.
If circumstances such that that that's the lower impact,
I have no qualms about us as a commission
approaching Mr. Moran or someone that is an abutting landowner,
that it may
have existing forest management infrastructure.
A good deal of our trail system
was formerly skidrope,
you know, especially out in Hobart,
Fezden, those big, wide trails that seem to have
no tree stumps and rocks and have a good base,
those are old logging.
You know, they make a wonderful transit for us
because they've sort of grown in from the sides a little bit.
And if you walk out behind T-C to some of the town-owned land,
town on land, there is a labyrinth of old logging infrastructure that people don't know about
because trees have grown back up into it.
But if you know what you're looking for, it's still there.
So I do think there will come a time where we do approach a private landowner and say,
hey, we're about to undertake, we'd like to undertake a timber harvest.
Here's the forester.
Here's the management's land.
And we have access across the back of your lot using this.
They may say no.
say no? I'll leave it at that.
So to see everybody here, you know what I mean?
It's like you're staring down at us.
And I totally understand where everybody's coming from.
Lived in town a long time. I've seen a lot of logging operations
go where every one of your houses are now is a logging operation once upon a time.
And the land forgives itself.
In a couple of years, this won't even be a thought because it's behind them.
You know, it could be six weeks, maybe every time you see a log truck,
you can either quiver or recognize it for what it is.
And there's an end to it.
I've had construction sites, a hundred dump truck a day going by the house, you know,
and there's an end to it.
And there's an end to it.
I feel like we're kind of combating ourselves because we're trying to do the right thing for the right reasons.
It's not like we get paid to do this. We're not looking to create enemies here.
Does D.C. Road need another look? Maybe it needs another look. But what's the fallback there?
It was brought up that this isn't our decision to make anyway, because it needs another look.
make anyway because it's a classic road.
This gentleman says it's a classic road.
He can start next week.
So I kind of feel like there was a discontinued road
and fell back to the Butters.
And PLC kind of has the same feeling
we haven't gotten anything in writing from anybody yet.
And they've done all the title research
They have. And we've asked them multiple side questions. I'd like to see it go along. I don't think it's going to be as bad as what everybody's imagined. I know from seeing this all my life, this is not the end of the world. It's, I'm sorry.
The person that holds the logs may very well live in Brookline. I went to high school with some of them.
I really think we should let it go through.
It's with a taste of my mouth because of what's happening on T.C. Road.
Is this the end game for the night? I have a feeling it's not.
I think at this point the commission kind of is looking positively to having it happen.
But that doesn't mean that we're not going to have to change our mind down the road.
for some reason. And I'm sure there's going to be lots of reasons presented to us in the next few days. And we have another meeting on the second Tuesday of next month. And that's going to be brought up again. And we
I'd like to thank you all for coming and offering up your opinions to it. We all live in town and we all need to get along with each other.
And I, you'll work with us on this.
So I'm actually going to make a motion that is, and it's contingent on the class six question, getting some clarity.
I'm actually in agreement that if it's class six, we have less of a play here.
But I make a motion that we agree to the access request and pass that recommendation on to PLC.
All in the favor?
You're going to do with the opposed?
I'm doing the...
Oh, yeah, I'm doing the opposed.
I'm sorry.
Gotcha.
That's okay.
I wouldn't let him lose a lot of .
Yeah.
It has to be one.
So, thank you very much, folks.
Thank you.
Thank you.
We still have other...
Thanks for, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
You.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You.
Thank you.
You.
You know.
I'm talking tonight.
Enjoy.
You have to move all those shares.
You know, I know this is over.
You're on camera just so you remember.
Your name is true?
Yes.
I do feel very sad.
And I feel like maybe I'm being educated with
what conservation meant in terms of
for those things.
I'm having, I'm going to do some thinking
about what I want to do in the future with
my vote.
And I am grateful to where I live.
And I live in Kingston, New Hampshire, which was a big walking area.
I'm used to logging.
So I'm not, this is not naive to me.
Yeah, no.
But I am.
I have something like that.
So I can understand that.
Yeah, so there you go.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Well.
Take
off wall.
I'm going to roast in with all.
Okay.
No.
No.
That's a place.
I'm going to lose everything.
Okay.
Just let the cat.
You're going to take it and send it to everybody?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This has all, this is everything.
I agree.
He's in the least months.
This is what this is what
it's never out of it.
I think this will have to get up to a matter
matter what.
You have to have the discussion.
And in this fashion, if they're here or not.
We've been tasked to do a job and shouldn't be ashamed to vote the way you need to vote.
Pass along to everybody and Dan.
I have no fault with Steve voting against it.
I have no fault with abutting landowners, having concerns over it.
I don't think we kind of have to be dispassionate and agree to, you know, have a discussion.
This is not going to be a big deal with.
It's big deal as big things.
But I also understand it is going to have an impact.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
All right, let's get back on the agenda here.
Back to the agenda.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That pardoned you up.
So, okay, conservation ordinance.
Is that you, Jerry?
Yeah.
So, um, I know
so I'm welcome to say that
Laura there's months to this work.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you, Laura.
Thank you, Laura.
I, uh, I, uh, word Smith and added some stuff, um, but she did all the reasons.
So, um, I don't know if it is, um, I won't explain a couple of areas where I don't think we knew
that Laura had on it.
This was based on her original document that we
discussed a couple months ago.
Well, no, it was in, um, I don't know how
I've gone out.
I missed it.
There were two emails from her, almost back to back
that had attachments.
And the second one, I thought was a duplicate
of the first one, so I never even looked at it.
Last meeting, I found out,
that the second one actually had the ordinance
and the, um, the, um, the other,
the other section, the, um,
the, um,
right, because the other documents were
places that she got,
Yeah, other parents and
right.
So, um,
so, um,
let's see.
So this,
this is not actually
just limited to
um, um,
uh,
conservation.
So,
under the authority,
the select board would be involved
the conservation commission
of Brooklyn police fire department.
I added to mind the
command management committee.
Could he had put that in a question mark,
but because they have sort of laid claim
to B-55, I think they should be
included.
But do they have any
But do they have any authority in and of themselves, or do they defer to the select board?
Well, do we have, well, we don't have to defer to the select board.
We can make our own decision.
So that's why I think she had the question mark in there,
because they are, their purview is, you know, leases.
But I'm not sure outside of that, they have authority to sort of have a binding vote or any sort of process.
They haven't been enabled.
like we just were at the town, do it?
Okay, so if there were, if this ordinance is adopted, the town of Brookline, the select board has the,
I think you could drop the money.
Pretty much everything.
Correct.
That's not okay.
So we don't have to put the...
First one, do that.
Oh, he's right?
Oh.
So basically saying that the, um, this
Select board, some way down below, to nominate other
other...
Designated other parties who can be responsible.
Right on the first bullet point under the authority.
Yeah.
Unless such management and regulation is delegated to other public officers by a vote of the town.
So she put in, you know, definitions from RSAs, which were very helpful.
very helpful town company.
Conservation Commission,
removing an offering salary market
which we've got involved those.
Now, if you had this RSA
47746 in, which...
I'm not a lawyer.
I tried to read this and make sense of it.
It almost seems like
this is an RSA that says
that something, if an entity had some sort of control over the land,
it was bought by someone else,
that that original control was still in place.
So it doesn't matter who,
anyway.
Drew, I'll, I'll ask you to take the other business.
So we really need to include this.
It seemed to me also that we would,
we wouldn't even be involved in looking at this RIS
rather less really thinking the core that got it.
Definitely.
So, Melendi Pond Management.
I'm looking at this map there.
And all the greens we've been by.
Well, it's all.
all the 55, but those lots are called out of the 55.
They're not separate lots, there are leases.
Yes.
But no, if anything happens on the green part,
the land upon management committee kind of looks after that.
Right.
But I don't think they've been empowered to do anything about it.
They have to go back to the select board and say, here's the issue.
I see.
They can make a recommendation, but it's the select board that has to act.
I see.
I mean, they're not doing the, where the millennium primarily
who have gotten involved in is the,
have a couple sites of meetings about
forest management on B-55.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
Well, okay.
I'm not going to get anything.
Yeah.
This is not good.
This is not good.
I mean.
I don't know.
Who wrote this 477.47.
Oh.
Oh.
I'm not.
I don't know.
I don't understand what it is.
I tried to
who code the first,
like,
which is quite long.
long.
Let me say what it is.
It was to strike that out.
But what does it mean?
I know.
No, no.
It's
it's
it. It means you can't restrict
anything done by a government body
of chair and organization.
Basically, a
government body or a charitable organization
to do what they want. Is that what
means?
I don't.
So anyway, I'm not
sure we're going to approve this tonight.
this tonight?
Definitely not.
So read that over.
I mean, it's fun and explain through what I,
what I gathered and think
he won't meet.
So she put in 163 that she was
glittering.
I, you know, that's a little bit too much of a
nanny kind of
when we put in a
a policy that
if you literally can be
be punched.
I agree with that.
Well, you know,
but you don't need to say about
because of the case.
I believe 47746
is essentially just
binding the conservation restrictions to the
fee of the land, not to the land.
Okay.
That's what Gemini just told them.
Okay.
Okay.
So she would keep it there?
Or?
I'm not sure it's necessary given the circumstances, because I think RSA 36 for conservation
for conservation commissions and the conservation easements already sort of take care of that.
But I'd say let's leave it in.
And Laura really needs to be part of this conversation since she did a lot of the legwork.
She may have a nuance that we're just not thinking of.
You know, maybe old agreements like, actually, the easement that we have for Talbot Taylor.
Yeah, true.
That's a strange one.
We spent legal money to.
That's where I said, ah, this is for Talbot Taylor.
That's where that in, as we talked through it and I said, there may be some strange things.
That's totally an unusual one that we had that we spent legal money on to figure it out because it was so peculiar.
Oh, there.
You know, it just was an early version of what's more commonplace today, but so it had terms that we just weren't familiar.
So that may be a reason to keep it.
Keep that umbrella to come over in these types of.
Yeah.
Okay.
You were like, are you, you, look like you.
I see something with all kinds of lines through it and it says, don't read me.
And I'm just kind of like, talk.
So the 163Bs that you've crossed out in here.
Yeah.
The littering clause?
Littering.
doesn't necessarily mean trash unless there's a legal definition that does. You know,
one of the things that we are trying to curtail is people dumping even organic leaves, grass
clippings, branches, you know, that may fall under that category. Well, that falls under
an encroachment on the conservation. Well, I think of an approachment. It's like from the butter.
But whereas someone could go look at a pickup truck and drive up Hutchinson Hill Road and dump their crap up there.
Or something.
Under the way he's defined it in this document, it seems to be a, it will, I understand.
Actually, I've called the primary definition of encroachment out of a Pennsylvania statute.
And then I added some stuff to it.
So it's conducting an activity that damaging or alters a land.
You don't have to be an advisor.
Okay.
Vegetation or other features, including directing buildings or, you know,
sheds or, you know, other structures, roads, driveways, or trails between the leaves,
some walls can be free or other vegetation, removing boundary markers, installing
lawns, or utilities. That would be kind of in a butter installing the walls, redirecting, or draining
artificial concentrating of clipe water, which would catch what's happened at the end of soft
fell, but would also fetch the guy who's draining his pool, which responds to conservation
on the whole rest of the conservation area.
Right.
Hazardous waste, material, natural, man made.
And it said, the Pennsylvania ones that said, including vehicles,
but what we found on, up on the power lines,
appliances, furniture, all that means, you know,
drugs.
permitted use basically comes right out of our policy.
The only thing I saw on that one is, do we, do you want to put a footnote that says, you know, it's not permitted everywhere, right?
So, some of these activities like snowmobile.
No, but that's in there.
It's a lot under specific prohibited by conservation easement.
Yeah.
Yeah, but we have trails that have designated uses.
Not always do they follow strictly in conservation.
So I should put in several-wise policy or?
You know, permitted uses may be restricted based on a given trail.
We don't allow a snowmobile in all trail system, separate from a conservation.
So, you know, prohibiting use,
all kind of learning this is applying with an insulation well-in.
You probably want to have in here maintenance.
You know, you haven't had the permitted use,
no mobiling in a coordinates.
You have all other motorized vehicle use is prohibited.
Oh, like trail maintenance?
Right.
Maintenance is usually an exemption.
protection, authorized maintenance, because it could be us, or it could be a
Somobile Club that we've granted permission to bring a vehicle on for the purpose of
maintenance.
Yeah, which could include motorized vehicles.
Well, we do you want that after all of the motorized vehicles, use,
use is prohibited?
Unless it's maintenance?
What's weird is that the, all other motorized vehicle,
vehicle.
Jerry, where you have the all other motorized vehicles,
use is prohibited, shouldn't be in the permitted section.
It should be in the prohibited section.
So, you know, move that down and put in the permitted uses
is maintenance vehicles, maintenance equipment,
either under the purview of the commission, or granted to
granted to private parties.
And then on the prohibit it would be all motorized vehicle use
and less explicitly permitted under the above section.
Okay.
No.
No.
Um,
they started through the rivalry free,
we have a high loss of that now.
Yep.
I couldn't use of explosives
to literally move that.
I would ask.
and chief that already existed in town.
I mean, we have a blasting ordinance.
Well, fireworks.
Yeah.
We didn't get the definition of what
was it?
Tannerite.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I would leave that off.
If we have to tackle it as an issue, then we
figure that out.
No.
It's a little bit in conflict about motorized
most of OSRVs.
The New Lanford term,
our definition for OHRVs is more encompassing than just motorized vehicles.
The whole discussion is back out in the open because there's a lot of
universally accessible type accommodations that were not necessarily
envisioned 20 years ago.
Like motorized wheelchairs?
Yeah, other ones that could have blur the line.
Yeah.
I think that's really we're going to see the state heading at some point.
you know, because it's, it's a, just nobody talked about it.
Nobody thought about it.
It wasn't envisioned.
It's an area that needs to be clarified.
For sure.
Because it is a motorized wheel vehicle,
but is it in a protected class that, you know,
doesn't really apply to what they've met before.
Yeah.
It was.
Would you do anything in the bag?
No.
I think there's this area where you wait for someone else to blaze the trail,
and, you know, like we did with e-bikes.
We hopped on board with what they did.
We shouldn't be breaking new ground there, in my opinion.
Okay.
You know, open fires, alcohol in the time.
I was camping without a permit and an extended camp.
And I guess that covers people who besides they want to live in the woods for a while.
Does that also cover parking off?
It's, it is.
It's because the parking lots exist on,
kind of on land that we manage.
So that the enforcement is,
you know,
I'll boil, that comes up to the select board,
where you guys are needed by the select board
and the police and law enforcement officers.
This is pretty much all.
So this is interesting.
Bringing up, like, what you brought it before,
like open fires, unless you have a permit.
But you could also put it under permit,
fires with a permit. And then also, like, camping,
camping without a permit is prohibited.
But it could also be under the mitigating, right,
with a permit.
I don't know, you know, you could get positive than negative, right?
I think it depends on where sort of the,
where the majority of the
Oh, I'm trying to
have a frame it here. The majority of the cases
exist. So sort of the default
position is you're not allowed to have a fire.
Okay. The exception is,
hey, we've explicitly allowed
it at Camp Plannery,
here's the process. Okay. So I
think it rests in the
default case. Okay. Rather than
the... Sure. Okay. That's how
I view it. Okay. I like it.
Yeah. Yeah, okay.
Well, we'll go over this again after I,
um, uh, end of it. Um, so on the penalties,
um, this is proof, uh,
much unchained by, by me.
Um, but I wanted to know is it description adequate to cover the cost of
art of recent tree trespass.
I'm not sure you should cap the cap the bottom.
That may be a statue. It was a statute. Oh, it's a statue? Yeah, but it's
per offense. So, like, okay. In theory,
that could be $1,000 per tree. Oh, okay. Um,
it could be $1,000 a day because that's a new offense every day or those
kind of things. Right. Okay. I think there's wiggle room there. I see. Okay.
Right. Right. Um, so, um, is this like what we had in my age? I think so, yeah. You know, I still,
it's, it's the other parts of it where, you know, the table, like, okay, is it, I fit more in that aspect.
I think, all right, this is the policy, but how do we actually practice what we said we were going to do?
You guys are going to come across a violation and you're going to say,
Here it is. Then we have to say, okay, you know, we find that this is a violation, that it's
punishable by a penalty, and we sent the landowner a notification that says you have X number of days
to resolve it. You don't. We're going to institute something. That's how I sort of envision it.
I mean, my time on the select board, there was at least one case where there were,
daily fines instituted for a particular case where unagreed upon condition didn't get corrected
in time over the course of X number of years. And so it finally determined that, okay,
enough time is passed. Now we need to start implementing the fine. And it basically, it
occlude every day until that's a big number. And magically, the underlying case got resolved.
So I think you need to give, you give a warning, you give some time for them to correct the problem.
And then if they don't correct it in that time, then we do need to have some sort of a fine schedule.
And if that goes on and they don't correct it, you know, do we continue to let it just accrue or do we pay to have somebody deal with it?
And that's where the restitution comes in.
We paid for a contractor to go in and remove the garbage, the appliances,
etc. And here's the bill. If they don't pay the bill, then you have the lawyer, the town council,
place the lien on the property. And it basically sits there and accrues interest until they sell
the property. When they sell the property, the lien has to clear before the property can change
hand. I mean, that's an extreme case, obviously. But the idea is, hey, we're trying to be the nice
guy here. This is the issue. Please resolve it.
a certain amount of time.
Yeah.
And if you think that was an angry audience.
I actually had no problem with the audience.
They were very articulate.
Yep.
I had no issue.
Yeah.
I was, you know, democracy in action, huh?
Yeah, we haven't left the building yet.
They're out there waiting for you.
They're out of the ramp.
Not at all.
We know where they're there.
She locked in loaded.
Should we reference the RSA that restricts to $1,000?
No.
No. Okay.
I don't think we need to.
Okay. All right.
I don't ask, because I ask the question, and then you're like, oh, they're not a save for that.
We think that was the case.
Oh.
I think that's what you're driving it.
But, you know, I'd hate to reference RSAs because if they change, you have, you have, you go, right.
You don't have a hole in the wrong.
I know, that's why I don't like doing it.
Yeah, yeah.
And then the adequate cover, isn't it a, everything that it costs us in order to take an action against somebody is recoverable?
That's right.
So, yeah.
Oh.
Because when we, we can't really come out short.
We looked at, you know, the timber trespass we dealt with.
We had the forester, we had meridian, and then the trees.
the estimated value of the trees and then the cost of replanting and the couple came back
and so what about would just double the, what was it?
They were moving, or they sold the value of the timber.
They basically offered to double the deputy.
Right.
They did it with that.
Oh. And that was over four years from the time we discovered the thing and found our way.
We plotted our way along here, and we didn't.
What I think we talked about before was the question of whether consultant costs can be included under that umbrella.
So that it explicitly calls out, like, we hired a consultant, a service provider to do various tasks of the project.
To find the boundaries.
to find the value of the timber.
Those aren't legal costs, but those are contractual costs that we took on to deal with the problem.
So maybe the question of whether we can add in consulting or contractual costs related to it as well.
Yeah, vendor and third, you know, something to do that, but.
Yeah.
Did we go, did we finalize our processing?
No.
So, so, um, so obviously.
we do the letter.
I think let's get the language done.
Just get longer done.
I'm going to do that next.
Do that another then.
Cool.
All right.
And we'll go over the
subject of process later.
Because that doesn't actually go
and be correct.
That's just our own work.
Okay.
So we need a hotline for the public
that's calling in, like, violations?
But he already does it.
He just call him, like, violations?
Mr.
Email Christa.
Drop by her house.
She lives number 13.
Right.
Anybody's secrets.
He's going to turn around in her drive.
What's going to order?
Was that James?
That was Jay.
I actually texted him earlier.
He didn't respond because he was taking the lead on that.
I know the opinion that Craig Birch is probably the logical, but Jay has questions.
questions.
He said, just what this mentioned is interesting.
Great.
If he wanted to eat, he'd like it.
He thought I would enjoy to be a part of that if there were an
opportunity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's his job.
Yes.
He's the life for.
45 years.
Put the loggers in after him.
But if we want to get somebody younger,
so they don't age out of them.
You know what?
lot of the heavy lift is the initial drafting of the forest remanagement.
Then at least when you go back to update them, you're starting from a baseline document
that you are updated.
It may be 100% still accurate.
It may need adjustment.
But once you get that sort of level of documentation across all of the parcels or the big blocks
of land, then it's a lighter lift in future use.
The thing that's holding back
Jay on Craig is that Craig, it was a, it was a bundled package.
Right.
I'm only interested in the forest management plan work if we also do the
part of the work.
Yeah.
You know, the flip side of that is,
Craig arguably knows the most about,
maybe the exception of Randy, hate, you know,
the acres of land in this area.
They've walked it, they've used it, they've used it,
they've used their other land on it.
But, and he's local.
But, I understand.
So I did text him, but they did not hear back.
Okay.
He's in Spain playing golf or something.
They have golf courses.
I'm sorry to decide he did not come as he.
I don't think he would have shy away.
Can you say you don't have any general business?
Can't remember.
Perfect.
Motion to adjourn because I don't have any non-public.
Good.
Well, favor.
We haven't seen the end of.
Are we shut off yet?
Nope.
Oh, thank you.
Update.
Is that what waving?