Town of Hanover, NH Rental Housing Ordinance Public Workshop Sept 8th 2022

Speakers are labeled SPEAKER_N. This transcript is machine-generated.

Recording

foreign
all right everybody welcome and thank
you for coming out today for those that
are here in person and online this is a
public Workshop to discuss the uh rental
housing ordinance that the select board
is considering
um for those of you that are online or
for those of us that are in person just
to note that this is uh being streamed
online on zoom and it is being recorded
as well there is an opportunity that if
you do want to submit feedback we do
have a survey online that we'll talk
more about at the end that you can fill
out and you can elect to not leave your
name
um and email address on that if you
would like to before we get started I
would love especially needing some new
and not knowing everybody although I
recognize most of the faces in the room
I'd love to go around and do some
introductions and so hopefully we can do
the same for folks that are online on
Zoom
um why don't we start with uh people in
the room if we'd like to just uh say
your name and what it is that brings you
out to this meeting today
I'll start uh my name is Josh torpy I am
the new town manager
um and so I should probably be here at
this meeting but also very interested
which we'll talk more about in a moment
um about rental housing and Fire and
Life Safety Brian Krakowski I work with
kind of Hanover building inspector that
uh Health officers let's say definitely
don't want to see if it's not for sure
um and obviously I'm one of the first
primary contacts for construction that
it affects all Hanover including housing
we're very closely into the fire
department often we've been called in to
assist them on Investigation so certain
aspects that over 11 building code and
so that's fine
I've just been very good planning tasked
with developing the ordinance and
also your Deputy Health officer put down
um
Kari asmus please let me know if I'm
blocking this 380. um I own a
condominate at Brook Hollow and
otherwise I've been a resident of
borough Handover for going on 20
followers
I'm Josh Merriam I'm a captain of the
fire department
is here because I have interest in whole
Community risk production and being a
part of
fire prevention as it released
for your Christian chair of the
townhouse
working on thinking about working on
this kind of ordinance for three years
seems like a long time I've been getting
closer to maybe adding one or obviously
I was obviously understood
Bill Garrity member of the select board
the same region is Peter it's been a
long time I'd like to see you to move
forward as a community and resolve the
issues
hi I'm still read an architecture policy
not much below
who does maintain their children's
properly and then I work for a
non-absentee landlord gentleman fish who
maintains many rental properties in
Hanover and we're also looking at new
buildings so
um it was many hats on
hello everyone I'm Lindsey Caulker and I
own a home in Hanover and I have
considered doing short-term rentals in
the home that I'd understand that this
summer that's kind of dovetails with
some of the stickiness of getting that
through and they need to be used on a
personal note I'm interested in housing
affordable housing especially inclusion
energy
conversations
you know
[Music]
Edwards I'm a currently chair of the
Hanover planning board we've been
interested in the
rental housing situation Hanover for
some time so I'm just curious to see how
this ornaments uh appeals to the public
thank you Jennifer
uh Jennifer Jones I work at the
Dartmouth real estate office as a
property manager
thank you Josephine I'm Josephine Benson
I'm a graduate student at Dartmouth the
vice president of the graduate student
council and we're obviously very
interested in uh rental housing in
Hanover
thank you David
my name is David Millman I am the
student body president uh and
undergraduate at Dartmouth
thank you
okay all right well I appreciate it's
got a nice different set of kind of
representations here in the room what we
wanted to do was keep today largely
informal I'm going to speak for a couple
minutes uh followed uh by uh Rob and
Marty and potentially a few others we're
going to keep that really short and we
basically would like to hear what you
all have to think and what questions you
had about the organisms we can sort of
tailor the discussion to the interests
of the folks that are here in attendance
um a couple sort of housekeeping items
to note that what we're also doing
Carrie and I are going to be taking uh
some notes and so that at the end of
this meeting we have an FAQ document
that's available on our website we have
a URL at hanovernh.org rental housing
and that's where we are starting to
collect all these different documents
that we're sort of putting together here
about this ordinance the questions and
answers that come up today we will
convert into a FAQ format and put it on
the website as well so it's sort of a
round two of frequently asked questions
for anybody um that might have done and
so what I wanted to do for a moment
before we kind of dive into some of the
questions is just set up broadly why
we're doing all this I know some of that
has been discussed in the past in select
board meetings
um but wanted to make sure they do that
here especially if there's anybody who's
watching this or watching the recording
after the meeting
who doesn't know the full history I can
empathize but it's really uh this is a
really important issue not just a
Handover but in many places and I think
all of the Town staff here we've
obviously had a lot of conversations
internally about the ordinance special
even just over the last couple months
and I think everybody has their own sort
of personal and professional context and
perspective that they bring to this I
know for from my own perspective what
I'll share is that where I'm from in
South Orange New Jersey uh was the home
is home to many wonderful things but a
couple of things that are not as
wonderful and one was the really
horrific dormitory fire at Seton Hall
University about 20 years ago
um that as I understand it uh our uh
Josh you mentioned in the program the
class that you're taking it's a case
study what happened at Bowling Hall at
Seton Hall University and even though
this was about more than a decade to
happen before I was like a mayor of town
and became a volunteer emergency
technician it was a big sort of
a big point in our community our fire
department and some of the survivors of
the fire that claimed several student
lines and injured 50 or 60 students some
of the survivors of the fire and our
fire department South Orange a lot of
work talking about fire safety in
Italian and other communities and so
from my own personal background that's
just a little bit of context about why
this is so important to do an ordinance
like this is not only being done so that
we can make sure that people who are
renting on a short-term basis like you
mentioned are able to do so it's sort of
the level of
safety on that for the people that are
renting and also for the for the tenants
and for the people who own the
properties but what we're really trying
to do is avoid a tragedy
um and we have a lot of rental units in
Hanover some of those are very high
turnover rates
um and there have been issues that are
what the reason why it came on the radar
of the select board and why we're
talking about it today
um so there's been
um I'm sure we're all aware that there's
been fires that have happened in high
density rental housing units which tend
to be higher risk than single-family
home owner and occupied buildings
um throughout the country I did want to
read a few things out that were sent
over to us as part of kind of the public
feedback and so I want to thank uh David
who I believe is on the call right now
uh from Dartmouth who collected some
feedback from students about rental
housing experience we've got some
feedback that was submitted to our
survey online some that was brought in
through
those sort of uh mechanisms I just
wanted to read a few things out because
I think all of us can understand this
issue on a bra level but just reminding
folks that there are serious issues here
in Hanover right now
um I think is an important context and
so this was directly from
um students who have rented in Hanover
quote everything was really dirty and
old with poor ventilation and no smoke
detectors
quote there were no smoke detectors in
mine and the apartment was drying
quote we literally didn't have a fire
alarm
and so there's a bunch more of those
that were solicited those are really
concerning things these are not small
issues these are not intermediate issues
these are major urgent significant
issues uh rental housing that doesn't
have life safety equipment like a smoke
detector and so that's the scope of what
we are doing that is the most important
kind of piece of this as we're obviously
we'll talk about there are other layers
of this like now allowing short-term
rentals which can help people and over
afford to spend over and over which is
great but avoiding a tragedy and
thinking 10 20 30 years down in the
future you know all of us agree on the
talent side
um that we want to have a safe and
healthy welcome uh safe and healthy and
vibrant rental housing market in Hanover
and that the goal is not to minimize
harm though of course that's their goal
but the goal is zero deaths or serious
injuries uh from a life or fire safety
issue in any uh rental unit in Hanover
um so I just wanted to sort of set that
up as a framework for the scope of what
we're talking about today
um and the way that we are going about
meeting those long-term needs is by
establishing an inspection and
enforcement and registration program
that we would Implement and so what I
wanted to do is ask Rob to speak a
little bit more about what that means
and then also ask Marty or anybody else
from the fire department to speak a
little bit about what that means from
the fire side so if you want to just
give an over here some more details so
yes the order that's designed to do a
trigger registration the registration
process
gives us direct contact with
The Authority having the local Authority
whether it's the owner or property
manager so that we have a 24-hour a day
seven day a week direct contact that's
critically it also establishes the
opportunity for the required inspection
the project is designed right now would
be phased in over three years
registration and media in the window of
three years to inspect all 1200-ish
registered rental housing units you know
three to four hundred a year
and then renewal every three years based
on the year you were expected
the other the other issue is to mute the
inspection to form to developed a draft
inspection form to tied to
um the codes and the various guidelines
that we have for housing including the
health laws the health office the
handbook costs for guidelines
to inspect it for DAC
that is the leakage for a proper
maintenance uh make sure that the doors
function properly locks functions
operating Windows function properly and
that there's co-compliance standards
like a smoky Tech and recovering them
outside protectors and other things that
are triggered depending on the type of
housing unit like
you know the hope is that all of our
inspections revealed that the properties
are fully compliant the good news would
be that we would have a database that
shows the units of our compliant at that
time
then we have to deal with occupant
behavior and occupant Behavior can also
for the cause of pro violation often the
products of Code by violation whether
they're obstructing exits or removing
smoke detectors and so on and that's a
different issue
today so at the end of the day
we would issue a certificate of
compliance that we've posted on site
for everyone to see and we would then
continue our inspector process and we
also have the goal of this for you to
have a full-time rental housing
inspector trained and connected by Ryan
and others so that those in the room who
know us know how we approach things if
it's critical life safety issues do we
need to get addressed immediately if
it's
not critical but and it may take some
time to get a contractor in we need a
window a reasonable window to address it
figure out a way forward we deal with
this 24 7. we work with many of the
landlords directly already so I don't
think that that's an issue but again the
goal here is to figure out a way to
ensure that every unit needs basic code
the basic housing code as prescribed in
this draft board
uh and then create an inspection system
that's everyone can understand why we're
doing it and what we're looking to check
on
I think that's it in a nutshell the
second half of the ordinance really
speaks to what happens if the community
sees a problem and how does that problem
get addressed
and we don't need any money
uh this process as outlined in RSA
so it was pretty scary
that would answer questions I appreciate
that and something I forgot to sort of
mention at the beginning is you know
this ordinance that we're looking at is
not the end of the process of finding
ways to sort of improve housing and
Rental housing and Handover this is a
point along a pathway
um not certainly not a starting point a
lot of work has been done before but
it's not the end goal this program this
program will be new but we would
anticipate setting some goals reviewing
it on a regular basis making sure it's
meeting our age and the community's
needs Etc and as part of what Rob just
or in addition to what Rob just talked
about there are other components to how
we Monitor and ensure the safety of uh
different type of housing units that are
our department also does and so I wanted
to ask you all to speak about that a
little bit too and and maybe if you want
to touch on some of the educational
um expanding educational kind of
Engagement activities especially with
renter and student populations
definitely great also okay so final part
ners traditionally in the United States
look at it a little bit different uh
when it comes to fire inspections the
codes really focused on Multi of
so your casual your individual residence
is pretty much often that's typically in
fire inspections and two families this
leaves a big hole and I'll come back to
that in a minute
um so in my previous employment in New
York and Rochester we inspect it as a
fire department every two family and
above every commercial piece of property
is also expected out of each Fire Safety
Division and the line companies also
went out and inspected right here in
Hanover we do about 1200 degree sections
a year
most of them are
our account we do PLS places of public
assembly especially where alcohol will
served
mandated schools area we do not expect
by the residents we do not office back
to families
um and so there's this big hole and I
think this
um this opportunity to get around as
performance speaks not only to the
greater number of
rental properties that we don't inspect
there could be three families
but also looks at that individual who
launched to rent this property so
there's a big difference in My View From
a fire safety perspective of somebody
who owns their own personal
single-family home who then decides to
rent it right and then does that mean
the fire safety comes from
and health codes when you step out of
that and you rent your property and that
doesn't mean
it's short-term rental or a bunch of
houses for for a year or whatever that
is or you're going to ruin so I think
this this code is the ordinance that
we're trying to do is to look at all
housing across the board and obviously
behind this concept of creating a safe
mental environment regardless of what
type of style housing you have and uh
and looking at this from a community
this reduction which is something
sometimes as a fire service from the
prevention side of the business we
always think about happening in the
truck and going lights and siren and
handle the emergency but there's the
educational component and looking at
your community and saying you know what
are the risks here and we have plenty of
this and I can tell you that
historically what has happened is we
find a lot of the very serious code
violations overcrowding Etc because we
get called for an emergency and a piece
of property we go to that property
um and we're pretty much surprised that
we have to deal with it on the fire side
of the business
so let's capture that can be kind of a
big overview of equipment
I think
if I could add so we spent a lot of time
discussing this and I think it's
important to briefly hit on the data
from the life safety side of things
again we have a chat about this the U.S
fire Administration did a report that
looked at a time period from 2000 to
2015. and during that time period there
were 85 fatal fires and foreign
um and looking at those fire fatalities
smoke alarms were either missing or
tampered greater than 58 of them and
alcohol was a factor in 76 of them so
looking at that data
comparing it to the likelihood of a
fatal Fire Within your own home there's
a stark difference between the two
like Alex mentioned that on the
education side of things when we talk
about Community risk reduction within
the fire department within the town
government enforcement is a component of
it but a huge part of it is the
education and that's an area that we
know is a place for improvement for us
and working jointly with Department of
college to get more information out to
the people that went
so that's that's a piece of it I
appreciate that yeah
and before we open it up I just want to
make to most points one is that with the
adoption of this ordinance the
short-term rental ordinance takes us
back it's contingent upon the adoption
of a rental housing inspection
departments so if there is an element
that's sitting out there wanting to have
the opportunity to do short-term
benefits that can't occur until such
inspection ordinance is about it the
second is that internally
um we have been having discussions as to
how we move the needle and addressing
the housing needs in addition to
addressing Life Safety one of the
discussions we've been having surrounds
the definition
of family unit unrelated persons as it
relates to
multi-family directions because there's
a different standard that can apply you
would require a voter town meeting we
certainly need planning board and select
board support with a change
but there is internal discussions to
have to see if we can increase
the occupancy with some safety
improvements to those units meaning
multi-family units
and create more housing opportunities if
it doesn't exist
okay thank you so at this point why
don't we just open right into uh
questions from anybody in the room or
anybody else
I wonder if it seems unclear on the
applicability
paragraph
accessory dwelling units it would apply
any unit that's directed
um so an Adu is a
accessory development only permissible
to interoccupy
uh single family residents the owner can
occupy each of the Adu with the
principal as dwelling
so but any unit that is rented would be
expected
so I had two of the overall question do
we have the rental ordinance from 2013
which specifies that everybody all
rentals need to register so I did that
um and then the deal was that if the
town received any complaints about a
rental or if it was you know driving
around any question about you know oh
there's too many cars there or that
we're starting to keep behavioral things
that the town would then inspect and
then there would be an additional fee
that I think was weighed if it turned
out that there were no violations after
all and you know when I look at things
in the RSA and I see that you know the
local enforcement agency appointed to
force the State Building uh coach shall
have the authority to inspect all the
instructors construction sites Etc I'm
wondering why we can't stick with what
we already have which is that any time
that you see that there's a problem that
then we would expect because obviously
we know that there are places with
puzzles you know the thing that I'm
thinking about as an owner of one of 78
79 Condominiums
um at Rock Hollow is that you know I
hear all the concern about
um fire safety I know that we work very
closely with Marty and Josh's Department
to install uh you know multi hundreds of
thousand dollars report system both fire
detection as well as carbon monoxide
um and you know those were all installed
within the past you know eight months
six months
per you know for what the fire
department wanted and so you know the
chances of one of these horrible
conflagrations
happening when we have the
state-of-the-art fire detection carbon
monoxide detection even though we have
no attached garages no unvented fuel
you know Peters any of that
um I guess I hear about these horrible
you know outcomes it's like well why do
we have to pay 300 a unit when you
already know that we already have
more devices than you know the typical
home and when you think about the 300
times 40 units and each unit is the same
because that's twelve thousand dollars
and that's something that our
um our Condominium Association our
community we really you know do think of
it forms a community my my spouse was on
the association board
um you know that we could be using that
twelve thousand dollars to even make
other things even better
um rather than giving it to the town
when you already know like that we're up
to speed in terms of our fire and carbon
monoxide detection and so again but
that's part of why I'm not understanding
why this has to apply across the board
especially when it looks like you have
the ability to uh inspect and enforce
building and life safety when we believe
there's a concern so it sounds like
there's two questions in there
um the first being what's the difference
between this ordinance and the one from
2013 why that one doesn't work I know
what the differences are but why do you
feel that 2013 doesn't work sure the
need for the new ordinance versus the
old ones that sounds like that's
question number one and question number
two is the applicability of the
ordinance and you know are there
exemptions or should there be or could
there be four units or buildings that
had installed certain fire safety
improvements and so Rob do you want to
um that will go down okay sure
the difference between the old ordinance
and the new ordinance is anybody wish to
Grant under the 2013 audience
final piece of paper and it sits there
we don't have any way to confirm whether
the unit is still owned by the person
who registered it we have no way to
confirm whether it's still an amount of
pool they have no way to confirm what uh
who the key contact is because
it's just the registration we have
hundreds and hundreds
registered properties those who
require property for the purpose of
renting to development they update their
forms quite effectively
the challenge here is we have two
challenges so that's the old orders it's
a new order that gives us the contact
person the property manager and the
owner who's managing and active
immediators on 0.47 basis so we have
direct contact that's critical
um it creates a certificate so that
those occupying this fits known that it
has been inspected and
meets basic code I can tell you that we
spend an inordinate amount of time just
finding the two parents complaining
about the housing conditions their
children are living
and we have no way to respond to it
because the occupant needs to file a
complaint
not apparently named California by the
20 year old who has a lease with
somebody that contract obligation is
good
I can't
taken
a period or a third party
you know concern
can go investigate
um more often than not it's the
occupants
the previous opportunities used in the
space that has caused the concern not
the condition that said
legal guidance from our council is that
we must treat all rural housing set
short-term long-term condominium
ownership whatever must be treated in
the same tool in the same way that can't
differ to you
you know the ordinance has been
developed and oppressed about absent
standards and I think you know I my
concern about speaking directly to
your kind of many situations by
understanding of the environment system
replacement requirements of urban
business goals has been failed
so it's hard to suggest that there was
some something more than just
do you know due diligence and
maintenance to bring it up to spec
rather than
so there are obligations for
associations like ours
um to you know uh you know
they're you know do all sorts of things
I know we have many things I mean when
we had a problem with the electrical
you know I I what was the things another
big part that was under the thing so I
mean yes but because I mean but we
already have to do that regardless of
the rental code and because we're all
paying taxes already including our
tenants take it indirectly it's it's
so it makes sense to me but since we're
taxpayers that we should work with the
uh
when the department is about as we
should to continually I mean when we
built the recycling garbage shed I mean
we need to do that even without this so
what more I mean we have to do that
anyway so I'll finish the answer um
that question about why are we asking
hey and again and my approach to this is
I'm not worried about
I've been tasked with developing an
ordinance itself funds
that's what I've been tasked with
meaning that the fee structure built
into the recovers the expense of
research provider that's what this word
is does but I think it's important to
realize that
we're also looking at whether the
occupied space the heaters work and it
meets the code requirement for heat 65
degrees in each you know habitable space
you know the hot water meets the minimum
code so and the maximum approach that
they're installing that you know the
water those are elements that are
important to look at that without a
physical inspection may not be
sure
you know and and I would say that
we have this situation it was it that
associated with the scholarity
you know we had some people who stopped
in that
it was an unfortunate situation
um so while it wouldn't have necessarily
prevent Ed that debt we would have had a
snapshot in time that said
temperature Min and Max were compliant
you know if we went in and saw 140th
attack without a raised websites online
um so that's I think I hope I answered
your questions
it might be the adventure a little
question regarding the fire safety issue
with uh
smoke correct so in New Hampshire Avenue
residential
but if you're going to rent
a room or your house in this rental
harness we get a chance to actually go
outside and say are you meeting the code
requirements and do you have a proper
fire safety environment for you to learn
it different than if you as a private
individual in your own house okay and
then you can jump into this kind of
rental business so to speak whether
you're running a room or the entire
house kind of puts it in a different uh
different bed view for
a safety concerned with regards too
and I think you did it the other day we
were chatting Ryan that there's kind of
this morality issue that if you're
living in your own home and you're
taking care of your own family that that
might be a little bit different than if
you're an owner and you're running to
somebody
so we get this big picture of the
difference between a single family home
that is rented in a single family home
with this one or occupied
when you jump into like the three
families that we were talking about The
Three Families would be or higher multi
I think the unit for possibilities we
typically inspect the common areas the
hallways the fire safety things that we
look at in a boiler we don't go into
each individual targets so like over at
recallo if there was a rail unit being
had around us we would actually be
looking in the rental unit but if you
were owner occupied would you have to
knock it on your door and going into
your individual unit to look at your
individual space two completely
different entities
benefits
are there other questions many folks
that are here is there any anything that
you wanted to hear about or anybody
online that you topics even if it's not
a question was there something you
wanted us to cover or speak to
specifically
let's just let me hear a little bit
about the timeline of what you all were
forecasting for this and and how it
would go into place
hypothetically I rented out my house
starting on November 1st and this goes
into effect you know how would that
impact things curious about how this is
going to be pulled up go ahead
like it starts with the adoptionary
organs and then we hit the ground
running to launch the registration
program uh hopefully we'll do some type
of public mailing the whole property
ownership
and you know set it up so that it's a
simple online straightforward
and then from there
will be hiring rental housing inspector
hitting training done and rolling out
the inspection process the key is upon
registering you'll get a temporary
certificate that will create the window
that operates
under the ordinance until the inspection
occurs and in your three-year cycle
starts with that on that inspections
once it's adopted once you're registered
you'll be able to short do short-term
rentals immediately you'll be able to
continue to do long-term rentals if
you're already in a rental market
and hopefully this will be seamless and
not in fact
is challenging that has something to do
with rental housing as well and housing
in general but probably three to six
months or more as far as getting
everything really moving and I think the
important piece of what you're saying is
that you're issued that temporary
certificate so you're not blocked from
doing your current activities even if it
takes us a little while to get things
going
okay
yeah yeah so also on the startup I think
somewhere in the draft ordinance it says
that you know we will try to uh reach
out to people that you think are you
know going to cover it but if you don't
receive a notification that doesn't
relieve you from the beauty of signing
up for it I was wondering
um how will you decide who's going to be
notified about this I mean again I'm you
know thinking about my you know own
Association where we have between
um people who have mailing addresses
that are different than the units
um or that are owned by an LLC or a
um you know a trust or something like
that it's 45 46 minutes so what all 45
46 units be getting I mean a certain
students seems to me like those would be
profiles and say well there might be a
renter in there so with all 45 46 units
get some form of notification and you
know we've talked a little bit that
you're you know if if there's an entity
that's not a master but it's the uh you
know Carlow Wills uh family trusts
Carnival bills trustee and Carla Wells
was the previous owner before the
trustee uh you could probably figure out
that cover Wills is in the unit so that
person might might get an exception I
don't know how does it work so at first
I never assumed that the owner's address
it's an indication that they're there
um that's what I'm saying what we intend
to do
in my mind the proper approach is to
send a letter to every single property
in the town
and included a link to the registration
and an explanation of many applicable
regulations beyond the mental housing
order it is appropriate to distribute to
any potential tenants so we may or may
not be renting if you are here are some
rules that you may want to explain to
your tenants so that they know it's
always Foods you know if you're if
you're not picking up yourself you know
and your tenants obligations the wheel
to tone out of the curve there's some
requirements for that
and we have been used
a letter like that
present in the past
um so then if a person gets it and they
say oh I'm running I'm not telling the
town
and then we find out there's a violation
so it's but it's basically just the
other system
um I think it's more than just the honor
System because
um community members
will be aware that there's a
registration requirement and then we
come
and we will have a transparent system so
anybody can look it up the goal is not
going to be any different than our
current building permit system that we
can log in from anywhere in the world
and see all the products that have been
issued and moves to the owner boosted
context
you know there are many elements of it
that we don't make public
but will be part of the following
directions
are there other yeah
so when it comes to life safety there's
a lot of things currently that are
considered grandfather so where do you
draw the line as far as what you're
going to make people change for example
if the rise in the run upstairs in their
house
from 1936.
doesn't meet hope they're not going to
rebuild the house so I understand that
you can make a make sure to have a
handrail at the right height and then it
returns to the wall and all those kind
of things but redesigning the staircase
seems a little extreme or are you going
to make everybody in a condo complex
change the windows if they're not egress
size okay
um as a billing officer we hate the word
grandfather it doesn't exist in the code
so I always agree legally non-conforming
you out we are not proposing anything
that changes the fire or building code
so right now
for example a fire code there are two
chapters in that book you're pretty
familiar with new construction exists
you have to meet by all the existing
whether we adopted this or not the way
New Hampshire law works is in vulnerable
property is required to be the minimum
state requirements so in the state
adoption firefood which they just did
which is going to effect this winter
January sixth one time and only was
supposed to assess their own property
and decide the same compliance or not
and make those improvements that's an
obligation you supply worker something
happens you to be found in violation of
State Park
the building code is a little different
building code again what's existing is
there
the building code does not apply
retroactively ever to anything only when
you apply for a permit and for what
aspect of that deferment you are seeking
permission to modify
I have no real Authority Under the
building code to go look at basement
stairs if you're applying for a kitchen
and now New Hampshire which is again
relatively new
there is the existing building code that
didn't exist
two or three coach Cycles to go over New
Hampshire it was supposed
New Hampshire did not adopt it when we
adopted
we now had that and we used it a lot and
that code does delve into fire barriers
and existing standards and and again
it's interesting with that code more so
and pay his head in this Direction They
categorize the changes meaning you
actually have to sit down now with the
building official Fire official and if
you are doing a repair
there's a section of things you want to
comply and most of the time you look at
that one of the first things to say is
compliant smoke detection
then we'll go to a level one operation
the level two operation a level three a
level four change of occupancy and as
you go up in the code to those different
levels of Destruction you have to
upgrade and Improvement so for example
working on commercial construction of
Dartmouth we do all those levels I have
projects where they're just doing minor
repairs or alterations
very minor changes to review University
I have other projects that are coming in
and they're changing application or use
and yes they have to comply for certain
portions of building with the brand new
construction exception Concepts
um the most recent change in the flyer
code that I was just able to apply
around
Josh there's not a requirement for the
fire chief to prioritize the risk of
structures to their community and
establish a program to begin to think
about those families
so now is a duty under the state law
that these guys have to assess Hanover
and say rental housing is a priority
commercial construction
shopping centers you know and that's all
meant but they have to do it by law now
and you will see that change and another
thing I'll just stand because there's an
infection of the Palestine
you're seeing the codes respond to what
happens to society made fires
especially residential
we are seeing code requirements for
multi-family buildings now require
annual Firefall inspections that the
owner either has to conduct or hire
somebody to do and actually produce a
written report so if there's an
incidence available to the fire chief
sign language into his fashion because
we're all hearing the news
events assembly residential where people
are going fire doors are locked chain
they're not working properly in people's
lives to figure it out so that's
becoming priority in our society that's
now ready to propose and even an
apartment building even right now in New
Hampshire there is a requirement for
annual firefighter inspections to make
sure they're actually working they sell
clothes the hardware is being maintained
we just don't want to stay out currently
at the fire department or a program to
do that that's the kind of things around
the Palestine program would include is
that those your obligations of the
requirement but yes you have to have a
process to deal with it so the answer
you're doing
if you're making no change then it's a
rental today it's an existing building
on the lookup
and the things that we would look at is
handrails smoke detectors and other
things
one of the reason she asked what
clarification is in um
compliance the list composed don't
include the existing codes do not
include the IRC
we can certainly take a look at how
whether we insert them without clarify
it we we don't have here so we don't
outside of this ordinance we don't have
the authority of that well we can have
an area
code the state of New Hampshire jobs
right it's just it's not referencing an
IRC in the existing building okay
there's also Insurance inspections
and there's a couple problems with what
is there really inconsistent uh they're
the people don't seem to have to have
qualifications and they're quite often
exciting events that uh and again this
is not for your properties citing things
that aren't necessarily Life Safety
related like super scarce like a safety
related cracks in the Bible signing is
that life safety
uh this this is for a family problem
and I was just hearing this yesterday
it's like why do we have to fix the you
know so what's the intern what's the
interplay between what the towns are
doing in this entirely separate process
it is there any interaction there isn't
and I would say that in my personal
experience
with
probably yes from an insurance
standpoint I'm horrified by it
when I can cite the code directly back
to it
but I need insurance
something that would help the owner to
be able to weigh the town before we just
had an inspection my hope would be this
this type of former is a rental property
it could be more than enough to
demonstrate it with the compliance now
to the insurance company to the
insurance yeah
I can
see that there's problems in the stories
being quoted and there's there's clearly
a problem
about how to solve it I'm curious what
other towns are doing either locally or
anywhere that it's working well and you
know I assume we've looked at other
options in some respect areas you can
kind of reflect on we have an example of
this so much system being implemented
somewhere and how it's working I mean
so
um we'll probably be first town in the
state of New Hampshire to tackle this
um cities which operate under city
council form of government have an
easier process to go through um there
are several cities that have full-blown
inspection programs for Manchester for
events
and others we've looked at the mall
we've tried to tailor this as narrowly
as possible
understanding that a broader it is the
more staff resources and the more
demands and composers on property owners
and John employees we believe that we
target the right
we focus on the right issue which is
finalizing specifically when we could go
town-wide all dwellings I'm not sure
that one that's the wise thing to do
with two the political appropriate thing
to address and I think that the property
and we were living in a home is that
we're living in the castle they can
choose to live any way they wish that's
the way the state of New Hampshire
approached it I don't want to go knock
outside what's going to say by the way
we're here to expect
so we've jumped through this I can say
that this is a year and a half and it
works it's been reviewed at least five
times our legal council and it's been
streamlined
significantly
near the end my hope is
and again I think we should be looking
at this as an interview process you know
the expectation is that we might find
that it needs a tweak here we go to the
select board and we make those changes
we may find that it works father I would
be shot and better roll out of this
nature of this magnitude
will start but we have excellent
talented staff and assist for guiding
and training the perspective inspector
and some very common level-headed people
who think about is this life safety or
is this you know
something that could be extended and we
know supply chain issues that we know
and we can do this and I think there's
five projects that were currently
actively engaged in looking at working
Works around for significant occupancy
because the elevator inspection can
occur for four weeks so we're doing
potentially self-certification and an
alternative route to make sure that it's
safe it's compliant but it doesn't keep
the operator from opening the business
and if I can add to some of the context
of an email I lose a little context they
knew here but bring a lot of context
from another state which is that the two
towns that I've been a manager in and
one as a mayor we've had inspection
programs like this in place one we
created the program when I was there one
we expanded one this was in South Orange
is a pretty significant program to have
it in place since that um since that
fire and so I think it's different state
to state and my sense is that um
insurance and liability unfortunately
you drive some of these things a little
bit and what I've noticed a little bit
just between you know the states like
New Jersey or maybe New York or
California versus New Hampshire is that
they seem to be a few years ahead on
these sort of uh I don't know if I want
to call it ahead exactly but a few years
ahead for lack of a better word on
addressing things from like a liability
standpoint and so these programs seem to
be a little more widespread there but
here maybe the difference is also some
states like New Jersey that are homero
states where Municipal governments are
allowed to create programs without
permission from the state whereas in the
state of New Hampshire or at
dillonsville State and so we're only
allowed to create programs the state has
explicitly authorized us so that might
be the difference too that limits the
towns
sure and I also just want to make sure I
know we have some people on Zoom I just
want to make sure that if they if there
are Zoom questions too that were that
were not um
that were that we're not missing anybody
on there and of course if we had more
questions as well
anybody of Josephine a mute yourself and
speak
hi
um so I think this ordinance is really
good from a life safety standpoint I was
just wondering if you guys had thought
about
how these costs are going to be passed
on to renters
um and if you expect rents to increase
in Hanover in the short term
um Can occupants be made liable for the
inspection fee
um anything of that nature
your approach well first I think
relationship here between the property
owner and the town
and the fee structure that we would put
forward
I think comes out to less than ten
dollars a month over the three year
cycle
um per unit per unit
um and
you know how the land feels the property
owner chooses to you know address
recouping at the I assumed will be
either baked into a rent structure or
possibly addressed if we have any
ability to move the needle on changing
opportunity
so uh
I don't I don't see
the ability to impose
any fee structure for inspections
because they are not the product you
know and there's some insurance and
situations here meaning that they could
turn over Charlie in certain cases
that's
I don't see us having the ability to
from a legal standpoint proposing a fee
structure that is placed upon the
tenants itself
okay thank you
David Millman
hello uh I was wondering you mentioned
education to uh tenants and I was
wondering what the plan is after the
adoption of the ordinance to uh educate
students about the uh what the
inspections entail and sort of how they
can be aware of the new law
I think I'll start with just that I
don't think we have that fully worked
out yet I mean it's something that we've
been talking about over the last couple
months data that we want to make sure we
include an expansion of that as part of
this I don't know Josh if you want to if
there's anything that I don't mean to
put you on this one I know we haven't
gotten too far down this road but if
there's anything you want to right so
yeah specifically address how we attack
them some of the opportunities that are
out there uh would be like providing
Life Safety messages
There's an opportunity for a stakeholder
a stakeholder opportunity for the
college to require education for
students that choose to live off campus
we've discussed potentially reaching out
to student the student wellness center
which does a lot of Education with other
graduates and
yeah I mean we're
the possibilities are endless as far as
the education goes it's just identifying
uh those Partnerships and working
together to make that a possibility
yeah there's a moral and one of the
things that uh I think we we're looking
to consider is uh
relaunching the living off campus and
network uh jointly put out by the
government followed in the town this
time where we can include the regulatory
structure some established that used to
be a regular
publication that was provided to
Dartmouth students who lived off campus
but it doesn't exist anymore and I have
reached back to Folks at Target to ask a
little more about that history I think
we'll probably be interested and
certainly I know we've got
representatives from the graduate
student council and from the student
body here and so so David Josephine I
know we need to talk about some of this
in the past but we love at some point
when we're getting ready outside we'd
love to talk to you more about that so
we can figure out I mean is a handbook
appropriate are students going to read
that or do they want a couple of quick
few minute videos that we can put out
that provide some of this information so
I think those would be great
conversations ahead
you provide an education to your renters
on an annual basis I believe I think
we've talked about that before so I
think that's a great opportunity for the
fire department or whoever to reach out
and work collaboratively with you and
are you going and manage a lot of units
within the community how can we help you
to get that message to your dentist to
be a partner
yeah lots of opportunities
but thank you for that
yeah we're talking about change the
subject slightly we're talking about
educating the tenants but when I see
that the potential thing that needs to
happen is to educate the owners because
like for example when I bought
I was almost 30 minutes from
that later
but anyway
this lady had filled out or her property
manager had filled out
29 or whatever rental housing
registrations and when you sign that
thing which the lady signed it it says I
have some old detectors I have
paranormality protectors and he was done
that saying we have them
you guys won't know I can get it permit
because the first thing I had to do when
I bought all those buildings was put in
smoke detection because they weren't
there but instead right on the on the
registration that they were so
part of the education is there's going
to be not just the cost of the
inspection but there's going to be the
cost of a lot of work that owners are
going to have to do that they don't know
they have to do they're totally unaware
because they think the smoke detector
that they bought and put a couple of
batteries in at Home Depot in the living
room is enough they don't get it so
there's gonna be some more
expense that getting back to Josephine's
question about things being passed on
cost wise to the tenants there's going
to be some owners that need to spend
almost nothing to get inspected and
there's going to be some owners who
might not be able to rent at all because
what they need to do is so expensive
they can't afford to do
there's going to be a pretty big range
so I just want to bring that up well I
think that's a great point you want to
take a few things out of that one is we
should be thinking about not just
educating tenants but also landlords and
property owners and the responsible
parties the ordinance but also just the
note I made that when we get to writing
the notice that goes out to everybody
something we might want to say in that
is to not make changes until you have
confirmed what the changes are that you
need to make so people don't go out and
say oh no there's rental I'm going to go
buy a bunch of stuff and then it turns
out that actually that stuff wasn't the
right stuff
um and so maybe we want to think about
that when we get to that point in the
the rental unit would have failed
inspection and this could not go
compliant right right
exactly but but just some owners are
going to have more to do this it's just
because they're not aware of what
they're already supposed to know but I
think the checklist
I mean we'll published this checklist
and it'll be a guide so that someone we
don't want them spending money
unnecessarily but it can be a guide to
understand what we're going to be
looking at and
there are gaps in there in their systems
they should be prepared it takes a long
time to explain to somebody the
difference between an interconnected and
a hardwired smoke detector just that
concept of you've got to work it out for
you well it may be something something
else I don't think we took a little
perhaps maybe it was before me but I you
know one or two comics about our costs
and about the kind of outside insurance
as well and maybe it's just something
worth on our end thinking about
is there anything that we can do within
the framework that we already have that
makes it easier for a property owner
who's running to provide this to their
insurance company
um you know maybe they get some benefit
from that maybe there's an insurance one
says wow this is an amazing thorough
inspection and they like the town of
Hanover did something so robust and
I mean all these are going to be public
documents I would assume anyway but it's
just a note on Ryan maybe that's
something we can think about is there
any way to help that person give that to
their apartment so yes
those who have little properties
and then you say whether they're grad
students or undergraduates and most
insurance companies say if it's
undergraduates be more insurious so you
have to go with only one carrier that
will even insure you and then a lot of
insurance companies are like yeah
students or students no and some of them
will differentiate and say okay well
grad students maybe are different and it
just depends on how the insurance
company views things and it also depends
on what state you're in because the
insurance companies are very different
in the in the two states so you get a
different answer for the same uh
population
if the house is on one side of the river
versus the other
they don't break it down by major or I
think that I understand
that way you know gender no no they
don't so it's all the same and I have to
say it's probably it's all this thing
everyone's like oh you should only run
to girls that's correct it doesn't
matter who you're into everybody is
going to behave the way they're
definitely behave so you just as they
rental rentals like your family you get
more damage over time because you're not
in as a landlord you're not in there
cleaning and finishing things every year
the way you are with the with the
Dartmouth students for some fun to 73
months you're going to fix it in
preparing things so uh insurance
companies to Summit to some extent are
being unfair with that policy
it's interesting information uh question
yes
um so that uh I mean
sure not so and anyway
what I was going to ask though is also
about the occupancy so I understand now
that in terms of one of my questions the
clock you can see was okay we have the
owner Anita is occupied by an adult
child and now you're saying you're just
gonna let people decide for themselves
what did they report that it's a rental
but this also says that it's unlawful
for any person to allow any other person
to occupy
um so you know they can say no it's not
a rental but they aren't allowing their
adult child under whatever Financial
arrangement to occupy the space you know
I also see on the list of people are
asking for you know does anybody want to
come uh host it for me for three months
you know you're allowing somebody to
occupy your home for three months and
that's a lot longer than a lot of
short-term rentals
technically are people being unlawful in
these situations if they don't sign up
and get their homes inspected and get
their certificate of compliance
for for house sitters and adult children
I mean is it unlocked whether they tell
you or not
and that would be a situation where I
can tell you at our you know
I mean so what is the intent because I
really can't Envision that anybody in
our association would call you up and
say hey uh you know I'm going to arrive
on my next door neighbor or you'd be
surprised
a couple of weeks ago we actually had a
son who wished if I'm getting complaint
of the scholar who was the land
the unit for the son who has been living
there for six years that I'm going to
say oh by the way he he doesn't you know
there's somebody besides the owner
when we all know this uh
you know your point
I'll look at the language and see if I
understand how you're coming from it
which section of the ordinance it's in
okay it's the um
under a certificate of
we want to rent but then also to allow
the bottom of page one it is unlawful
for anyone to allow any person to occupy
any unit without a certificate of
compliance and given that we know that
this is for a short-term rental as well
you know that we can be talking about a
very short period of time and there's a
number of cases where there's rent is
not involved but people are allowing
other people to occupy you know their
space I mean the owners may be there but
owners may not be there and again I'm
thinking about
uh compared to buy uh units for other or
for people who buy units just for other
family members
um or you know house sitters dog sitters
you know people are on vacation you know
sometimes long vacations in this town
um I think I think we can look at the
language to make sure we didn't
create an unintended consequences of
choice of language I can tell you that
we harvested up fairly clearly
you know from our perspective we see a
negative scenarios play out
um I can list a couple of four houses
that are sold
two parents undergrads and the question
is
is the student the owner
and then can they give you four or three
more tenants in it yeah you know if
they're on the D you know all all of the
iterations would be intended to
and you know the goal here is not to
weaken the 300 related person's rule as
it relates
because they do that's the character
community
but it's to make sure that the units are
safe and active and mean code so let's
look at that language to see if there's
not any kind of consequence
so in the meantime is there also
um uh any other questions from anybody
on Zoom before we start to wrap up here
if so raise your hands
say nothing at this point
um and unless there's any other
questions in the room I just want to
thank everybody for coming in and for
spending the conversation and thank all
the staff also want to thank the select
board for
um putting this ordinance forward and
making this a priority because I think
all of us here think this is something
that's really important
um and everybody who has tuned in online
as well like I said before we'll make
this recording and add a q document
available at
hanovernh.org rental housing so
everything is there if you want it and
the next update about this uh will be at
the select board meeting this coming
Monday where we will recap this meeting
that we had here and talk about uh next
steps unless there's anything that
anybody else wants to add then I just
want to thank everybody for again for
coming out for expanding the process
with us thank you
bye everyone