Commission Meeting July 17, 2026

Speakers are labeled SPEAKER_N. This transcript is machine-generated.

Recording

Okay, thank you very much. And it looks
like you'll drive the slides. So, uh,
thank you. I just want to start out by
saying we appreciate the opportunity to
come in and share a little bit about the
work of ISO New England. Our
organization is based in Western
Massachusetts.
and I'll talk briefly about some of our
uh major responsibilities
and then talk about how we are uh
planning for the development of large
loads and I'll explain what that means
uh here in New England. I'd be happy to
take uh questions along the way but I'll
take any cues from the chair in terms of
uh how we manage uh the time. So uh next
slide please.
Yeah.
>> Okay. Thank you very much. So, ISO New
England has responsibility for three
primary areas related to the bulk power
system in New England. We operate the
high voltage transmission network and
coordinate uh with all of the electric
uh transmission companies in the region.
You can think of the ISO as the air
traffic control for the power system. Uh
air traffic control wants to make sure
that planes take off and land safely.
Our job is to make sure that supply and
demand for electricity are in a perfect
balance for New England on a
minute-to-minute basis.
We operate uh the transmission system in
an agreement with the transmission
owners in New England. So I would just
make it clear up front that is in New
England does not own transmission. We
don't own generation. Uh we are a
service provider uh here in the region.
Uh every power plant in New England that
wants to uh connect to the grid and
operate on a day-to-day basis does that
through coordination uh with ISO New
England. So we're making sure that the
system in total operates reliably. And
when we talk about operating the bulk
power system, uh we manage the high
voltage lines. So these are the larger
lines and the larger poles. Uh typically
rated 115,000 volts and above. Uh most
of the power in New England actually
flows on the 345,000
volt lines or 345 KV. And you can think
of that like the interstate uh network
for delivering power across New England.
So, so that's on the operation side.
We've been doing this uh function for
New England since 1997.
Uh the second responsibility we have is
for administering wholesale electricity
markets and uh our customers in New
England typically are power plants that
are selling into the grid. Uh suppliers
who may be contracting with power plants
in New England or outside of New
England. And we provide a a market uh
platform for uh buyers and sellers at
wholesale.
Uh finally the third area of
responsibility which we'll talk more
about today is uh the planning of the
transmission system. We look out 5 to 10
years. We develop a forecast each year
of the electricity needs for the 15
million people in New England. We look
at that on a regional basis. We also
looked at it on on a state-by-state
basis. And we need to make sure that the
transmission system can support uh the
forecasted demand for electricity. And
of course large loads would have an
impact on uh the transmission system. We
also oversee the interconnection of uh
new resources. So if somebody wants to
build a new power plant of any kind as
long as it's tied into the high voltage
network uh that is coordinated through
ISO New England. So those are the three
responsibilities we have. The uh I and
ISO originally stood for the independent
system operator. We do not have any
financial interest in any companies that
participate in the market and we are
regulated by the Federal Energy
Regulatory Commission uh or FIRK. So
they oversee these three functions
operations, markets and planning. Uh
next slide please.
And this talks about some of the things
that we don't do just to distinguish
between the wholesale side and the
retail side. We do not have any
connection to the uh retail customers in
New England. Um that is under the
jurisdiction of the state public utility
commissions. I mentioned we don't own
infrastructure or have financial
interest in the companies. Uh you will
hear ISO New England talk from time to
time about fuel infrastructure, but the
only thing we actually operate is the
electric transmission system. If a power
plant is going to sell power into the
New England market, they need to manage
the uh acquisition and uh contracts for
their fuel.
Uh if something needs to be uh built,
whether it's new transmission or
generation, that goes to the state
sighting agencies for approval. We
approve the interconnection to the grid,
but where things are located is up to
the individual states. And finally, we
do not have authority to plan which
resources get built. So some people
might advocate for certain technologies
whether it's nuclear or wind or gas and
England doesn't have an ability to plan
on an integrated basis which types of
resources get built. That is a decision
that's made by companies that are
investing capital in the region and by
states that are expressing preferences
for different types of technologies.
Next slide please.
So uh when we talk about the ISO's
planning responsibilities I mentioned we
do a forecast every year looking at the
uh demand for electricity
for the past decade or so. the growth in
electricity demand has essentially been
flat. Uh we have not seen year-over-year
uh increases in demand. A lot of that is
because of uh two developments. One is
energy efficiency investments by the
states and utilities has really brought
down um electricity consumption and
we've also seen more recently behind the
meter solar. So if somebody puts a solar
panel on the rooftop or a small array in
their community, it doesn't really look
like a source of power to ISO New
England. It looks like a reduction in
demand on the bulk power system because
that customer is now being served by
that solar array.
So uh historically we've done uh
forecasting based on economic uh
indicators and and uh population
estimates but there are some types of
loads that just sort of appear in large
quantities and they they wouldn't
necessarily be part of our normal
forecasts. So we call those step loads
and we've indicated on this chart just a
couple of types of uh loads that would
contribute to demand growth in the
region. So, normally we're looking at um
uh growth of one one to two% perhaps per
year. That would be pretty aggressive.
But if you have a data center, which
could be tens or hundreds of megawatts,
uh that wouldn't show up in the normal
forecast. So, we've started to factor in
a forecast for data centers. We are not
anticipate crypto mining to happen here
in New England, but it is a type of uh
large load that we would be on the
lookout for. Uh there are very
aggressive goals for electrification of
both transportation and buildings for
heating uh throughout New England. And
so those could have uh significant
impacts on uh future electricity demand.
And then EV charging depots. I'm not
talking about if you put an EV in your
garage and you have a a a plug to uh
connect that to your local circuit.
We're talking about if there was a a bus
terminal with uh all electric buses.
Those types of things wouldn't normally
show up in a forecast. Uh they are what
we consider a large load uh or a step
load.
Uh next slide.
So there's a couple of ways that we are
preparing for these types of loads. And
I I would just say kind of upfront, we
are not seeing these types of loads
appear in New England currently. Uh they
certainly are a major development down
in the Pennsylvania area around
Virginia. U Northern Virginia is data
center alley. And one of the reasons
there's a lot of data center activity is
most of the global internet traffic uh
comes ashore in undersea cables that
make landfall in the area around uh
Virginia and companies are waiting data
centers really right on top of that
infrastructure. We don't have that up
here in New England. We also, as you
probably know, have pretty high
electricity prices. So it's not an ideal
place for most data centers uh to be
located. However, there are expressions
of interest in uh some smaller data
centers and so we've modified some of
our planning processes to take into
account uh that possibility. So first of
all uh in most cases a data center would
not come to ISO New England directly uh
to connect. uh for the most part they
would go to the electric transmission
comp um companies in the region or we
call them the transmission owners and
they would be seeking to interconnect uh
typically at the uh the local
distribution system. So the transmission
owners are kind of our eyes and ears
into the uh interest in developing those
types of resources. Uh secondly, our
team is in close coordination with state
policy makers, legislators, uh utility
regulators in each of the New England
states to understand what types of
incentives or programs might be in place
that would affect the development of
large loads. Uh, I'll give you an
example, not necessarily from New
Hampshire, but both Connecticut and
Massachusetts have provided tax
incentives for the development of data
centers, and so those are on the books
in Massachusetts and Connecticut. It
hasn't necessarily resulted in a massive
development of data centers, uh, but it
is one of the ways that the states, uh,
could incent those types of resources.
Uh more recently, Massachusetts has
provided some guidance to uh restrict
some of that development, but I think
the uh the state's tax incentives really
were geared around economic development
uh for attracting data centers. I'm not
sure that fully takes into consideration
the impacts on the electric transmission
system. However,
um and finally, we're uh doing research
with our peer organizations. There are
ISOs around the country and we work with
engineers who operate transmission
systems uh nationally to understand what
they are uh seeing and how they are
accommodating these types of large loads
in New in uh here in New England. Next
So I mentioned our forecast a couple of
times. It's the uh technically it's
called the capacity energy load and
transmission and load is essentially the
amount of uh electricity demand that is
being served on the bulk power system.
So currently in our forecast we see very
limited uh data center activity but
potential for growth. There's only a few
projects that are in formal study and
it's under 300 megawatts. 300 megawatts
would be very large for a town or a
municipality. Uh but it would be about
the size of a small power plant uh here
in New England. Just for a point of
reference, uh the New England power grid
peaks at about 25,000 megawws in the
summer. So adding 300 megawws uh would
certainly be manageable, but if we had
massive deployment of data centers in uh
states around the region, uh that would
certainly be much more challenging. So
the near-term impact we expect to be
minimal before uh the 2027 28 time
frame. Our forecast which does look out
10 years, we've started to make some
assumptions based on early expressions
of interest that the uh the amount of
impact to peak demand into the 2030s is
really in the uh the low hundreds of
megawws.
And uh large loads of course would
typically be consuming electricity round
the clock. So we also think about how
much energy they're consuming, not just
sort of the the capacity that's added to
the system. And so those numbers are
relatively uh small as well. Next slide.
So there are a number of things that
will influence the development of large
loads around the country. Uh very
recently our regulator Federal Energy
Regulatory Commission issued an order.
Um that order relates to large loads
specifically and it applied to all
system operators uh like ISO in New
England across the country.
uh in that process. This is based on
direction that the US Department of
Energy and the Trump administration has
given to FK to ready the the nation's
transmission system for the development
of large loads and the the large loads
really are to support and enable uh AI
activity uh in the in the US and
so they've put some uh pressure on FK to
come up with a way to streamline the
process to enable uh large loads to
connect into the system. Uh ISO New
England is required to submit a filing
uh to the FIRK in um in August. Uh we
are in the process of doing that and
just this week we introduced a couple of
statements about the types of uh
elements that will be included in our
filing uh to Furk. We've also requested
uh an extension of the time to complete
the filing. uh this was part of uh FK's
original plan that ISOs could request
time and that's to work with our
stakeholders and the states uh to
develop the filing uh here within the
region. So uh we do expect by uh by
November the uh the full filing will go
into uh the FK. Uh we also submitted uh
this week to our stakeholders a draft of
a filing that talks about how we will uh
manage resource adequacy as we see
development of large loads in the
region. Resource adequacy is a industry
term essentially means do you have
enough resources uh tied into your
system or accessible uh to to the region
to support the forecasted demand uh for
electricity. So there are a couple of
early statements. Uh they are uh posted
on our website and if they're of
interest to the group, we can certainly
follow up and make those uh available.
But in addition to any work we might be
doing proactively in New England, we are
under obligation to respond to orders
from our regulator to put in place a a
longerterm plan to deal with large
loads.
There are also looking on the right hand
side there's a number of uh national
conversations underway. uh state utility
commissions are looking at this very
closely. Uh the National Association of
Regulatory Utility Commissioners or
NEOUK uh is watching the development of
large loads and they have an interest uh
in in the reliability of the electric
system. So making sure we can serve uh
the demand on the grid but also equity
issues in terms of what happens to the
costs for uh normal everyday consumers
if suddenly very large loads are added
to the system. Who's going to pay for
the resources needed to support them?
Who's going to pay for the transmission
system to support them? And those are
questions that uh state regulators are
looking at uh very closely. Uh a number
of industry groups are looking at the
risks that are attached to having large
loads uh added to the system. And as I
mentioned earlier, the states have
different priorities uh around this. If
if we think about the the last two
years, the state legislators have uh
considered a wide range of responses to
potential data center activity,
including uh moratorum. Uh Maine, for
example, has a new executive order that
the governor uh signed that is creating
a a large load and data center advisory
committee that has to produce a report
on how they will address the development
of large loads uh in Maine. So there's a
lot of interest in this area and uh
we're trying to stay on top of that here
at ISO New England. Next slide.
I think that's the last slide. So, Jen,
I'll pause there and have happy to take
any questions.
John N here. So 30 years ago there was a
huge controversy about building new
power lines in New Hampshire to bring
down hydro Quebec power. So that did not
happen. That was defeated. And yet we
still have electricity right now. Where
did this electricity come from that
filled that gap?
Can we turn up to 11?
uh you you broke up at the end, but I
did I did hear there were proposals for
bringing hydropower down from Quebec. We
have done that. We we are a importer of
power as a region. Uh typically about
five 10% of our electricity does come
from Quebec. Uh we have new transmission
line that was recently energized that
allows additional power to flow into New
England from Quebec. But most of the
generation over the past couple of
decades has been natural gas fires
originally. I guess
>> that's okay. I'm happy.
>> Yeah, we're still breezing. Um, so no
problem.
Yeah. Does SRPC
down here in the bottom right?
Okay. Um folks online, I'm going to
leave the meeting very briefly for you.
Maybe I'm going to switch my Wi-Fi
because
we are not getting a good signal.
is very fast.
I know how that's going to be much.
So that
>> can online now.
>> Yes,
>> we can hear you, but you're still frozen
on the screen.
All right. Thank you. Sorry for that
that brief pause that was running so
smoothly. Then we went to Q&A and
I think
John
>> John I'm happy with that.
>> Okay. Uh you mentioned briefly that
there are a variety of potential large
load impacts. Um you focus mostly on
data centers in your presentation. Can
you speak a little bit about the how
you're thinking about the
electrification goals and and how those
might impact the grid?
>> Uh yes, thank you. Good question. So
before we even started looking at this
data center activity and our forecast,
we have for a couple of years been
forecasting
uh the effects of state policies for
electrification and that is actually
where we see most of the uh forecasted
demand growth. It's from EVs and uh heat
pumps.
And if you think about uh those two uh
resources, our our long-term forecast uh
out 10 years shows uh probably about uh
10% growth over a decade. We've used
some modeling based on data from the
states around their EV and EP pump goals
and that really could drive a a doubling
of demand on the grid if you look as far
out as 2050.
So even before you look at large loads
like data centers uh we do see
significant growth on the grid uh just
from electrification. Now I mentioned we
do that forecast every year. So that
gives us a chance to kind of do a
refresh on what the state policies are.
But we also look at things like
registration
from motor vehicle departments and we
found over the past few years that
people are not actually buying electric
vehicles as fast as the states had
anticipated. So the growth has come down
slightly for our uh forecast but we are
still predicting over time that we will
see pretty significant growth as people
transition to electric vehicles or
plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.
All of the details for that are included
in the SEL report. If you're interested
in those numbers or the numbers for New
Hampshire, we certainly can make that
available to you.
Uh Brendan, I'll ask you to take that up
as a follow-up item. Well, yep.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> Hey, good morning. I'm Curtis Register
from Durham. My question is uh so
reading the the chart here, it also
mentions uh water factors and energy
factors that are uh being in the
planning for step up with the planned or
assumed step up of power on the grid to
be around 1,000 gawatts by 2040. How
will that impact our water consumption
uh for the New England and is that going
to impact how much more we have to
import?
>> When you say water consumption, are you
talking about cooling for data centers?
>> Correct.
>> Okay. So,
I mentioned earlier that if a power
plant wants to supply power to the grid,
they need to manage the fuel supply for
their resource. When we look at things
like large loads, uh we are looking only
at the electrical interconnection to the
system and how much power would be drawn
from the grid. We don't have a process
to look at the uh the water consumption
that would fall under the jurisdiction
of the states that oversee uh sighting
and permitting. ISO is not a a regulator
or a permitting authority. So it it may
be a factor but it it's not something
under our control.
>> Thank you.
>> Thanks for speaking to us. Uh quick
question.
Is there a graphic visual or set of
graphics that can demonstrate that uh
from say last couple of fiscal years and
into 2030
the contribution of sustainable energy
as a measure of as a percentage of the
overall growth of supply
is a graphic that shows out of 100
megawatts
arbitrarily 50% of the growth came from
solar or from a grow or whatever. Is
there a graphic that would show that?
>> Uh [clears throat] yes, it's not in this
presentation, but you could actually see
that in real time. On our website, we
have a a a data portal that shows what
the resource mix is and it also breaks
down the types of renewables. So, you
can see real-time operations. Uh we also
have a historical data that shows what
the resource mix has been uh from 2005
to 2025. So we can follow up and make
that information available.
[clears throat]
>> Okay.
>> Uh building off of the re the previous
question about the energy demand maybe
water. Um so if I follow it right that's
not within your wheelhouse the water
demand and water consumption.
So do I would would I understand then
that whole issue then becomes a local
matter terms of you know like a site
plan review and then looking at impacts
on infrastructure like any other
development but that would be a local
decision
local impact etc. Is that correct? It
would not be ISO.
Yes, that's correct. And we simply don't
have the expertise
uh to make decisions in that area and
it's not a responsibility that has been
assigned to us by the FK. So that that
would be fall under either local or
state uh jurisdiction.
>> Well, I do follow up to that. So when a
data center is proposed before a
community goes before playing board,
this is for DES guy too. Is it is the
state regulators poised with the task
force to step in and help the planning
board uh go through the process or we'd
have to depend entirely upon the
developers uh uh information?
>> Make sense? Well, well,
I would say you certainly should be
coordinating with your uh counterparts
at the state level in in New Hampshire,
either at dees or the department of
energy in New Hampshire or the PUC. All
of those agencies I understand to be
following these issues and uh that's
probably where you'd want to get the
state support from. I can't speak uh
specifically to any task forces that
might be in place for New Hampshire.
>> Thank you for that. Yes, guy. [laughter]
>> We'll get to see you in a moment.
>> Oh,
>> okay.
945. So, that's at uh No, 9:4. We do
have a couple minutes left for ISO
questions.
Colin L staff. Um I'm wondering just
from
is there a difference in how you manage
the power flow around the region between
like a large single power plant and a
whole bunch of solar, you know, rooftop
solar or the big we have some pretty big
solar installations that are coming
online in our region. Um, does that
change how power is managed in terms of
the
air traffic control metaphor you use?
>> Uh, yes, it certainly does. So, when we
think about operating the uh the power
system, we we use the term dispatch. We
dispatch generation. We give them
instructions when to come on and and uh
how much to produce onto the grid.
usually they're ramping up or ramping
down uh and when to go offline. And so
historically nuclear plants, gas plants,
um coal plants, oil plants, they've all
followed uh dispatch instructions from
the ISO. Uh if you think about solar,
most of the solar in New England is
behind the meter. So we are not seeing
that directly. There's no metering that
gives us real-time information on the
solar. we're able to gather data uh each
day and do a um our models can kind of
learn what the solar production was
based on the weather conditions and then
that feeds into the planning for uh for
the future. But certainly having lots of
solar on the system is is taking demand
off the grid and it's just it's really
just shifting that demand. So if you
have a cloudy day that's still hot, that
demand is then going to be served by the
grid. So we have to be thinking about uh
serving the customers in New England on
a day when the solar would be operating
and when the solar wouldn't be
operating. So it certainly is changing
the the dynamics of how the grid
operates. Now the larger grids scale
solar that's connected to the system not
the rooftop uh projects those resources
um are metered directly so we can see
them uh producing power to the grid like
uh any other uh large power plant
and I I would just come back to the
earlier conversation just to clarify we
are as an organization we're a
independent notfor-profit corporation
regulated by the f but we are not a
government agency. So we work very
closely with uh government officials but
we ourselves are not an agency.
>> That gets us to the end of our Q&A time.
Thank you Mr. Johnson.
>> Thank you for having us.
>> Next up is Steve Roy. He's a manager of
theology
program and
there
is a trick that you were doing.
>> Sorry.
>> What's the
present?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's in PowerPoint. present.
Oh, okay. So, we'll be over there, too.
Are you seeing the presentation on that
or is it taking a second?
We should be good now.
I think you're good.
Keyboard.
>> My name is Steven Aoy. I am the section
manager of the hydraology and
conservation section at New Hampshire
DS. That's a section within our drinking
water underneath the water and down here
talking about types of permitting
programs that's largely being played in
the event that we get an application for
an individual standalone site for a data
be a regular data center data center or
an AI identity data center. Um we
haven't had one of those reflecting
[clears throat] somewhat of what was
said previously
not really a lot of sites that are
rolling in the door agency and talked
about across a lot of programs here. I
have touch bases with some of those
program managers. I know some of those
programs very well see them
data center or standalone site whether
or not there are data center
applications seeds that are proposed
we wouldn't necessarily know
we want to take just real quick just one
question so data center application is
that by the planning board or does it
come in around the planning board to you
from the from the the project sponsor?
>> Okay. [clears throat] So, most
>> standalone sites usually go to the towns
first.
>> Whether if it's in a city town or a
village or a town with infrastructure,
but sometimes it goes to the local
sometimes it goes to the state first for
site and then it goes to the town
because it needs utility services like
sewer. So it's a standard application of
paperwork.
>> No, it's not.
>> So go ahead.
>> And just to for clarification, I think
most everyone here knows that there had
been a conceptual application in
Nottingham. There arose a lot that
generated a lot of um attention
>> uh and a lot of questions. Uh and part
of that was just what what do you do?
How do you regulate and what existing
systems are in place to regulate data
centers? Um, for those of us in the land
use universe, it's it's a new land use
and we don't normally see a new land use
in our careers. So, it's it's a lot of
working and figuring things out. Um and
so that was part of today is just I'm
trying to understand what exists and
what might we still need to figure out
um in the future.
>> Sure. So on this slide
of just providing what will likely be
some permitting programs across the
state that may uh be in play sites to
close
from the design development construction
phase onto the ongoing operation phase
for water wastewater management and
potentially related air discharge.
So again who I am the hydraology and
conservation section. I oversee numerous
perming programs
uh the predominantly the groundwater
withdrawal per program large groundwater
withdrawal community well sighting large
and small bottle water storage.
Additionally, I see ground discharge
permit which is related to discharges
associated with waste water to the
ground or groundwater
approved numerous sources and discharge
sites for some of the towns in
Rochester, Farmington, do and Durham uh
both have groundwater withdrawal and
discharge permits related to their
municipal water systems. Additionally, I
receive water conservation and water use
registration reporting program in the
state. Um, as well as I interface with
surface water restoration
by that program. I also lend a hand to
the alteration of terrain program
related to groundwater monitoring plans
with impact private wells related to
site development that includes blasting
at AOT permit sites. So I I do touch a
number of these programs and have
touched basis again with other program
leads here. At this stage, no one really
has an application for an AI data
center.
A couple things I do want to emphasize
and
need to point out. Whether or not any of
these programs and permit programs apply
and which ones apply is really high
highly dependent upon the site
conditions and whether or not there are
public utilities available like city
sewer, like city water. So you don't
need a groundwater withdrawal permit if
you've got city water. You need
connection to the public parks.
And I'll talk about what that what that
is likely. Uh, additionally, make sure
both everybody gets this message front
end and the back end here. These
permitting processes are applied evenly
to any any digital regardless of that
use. AI data center looks just like a
golf course, looks just like a nursery
that grows hydroponic lettuce.
Um, regardless of whether of the use, we
don't make [clears throat] a subjective
kind of determination on the propriety
of use permit processes, they all have
to follow the same testing program in
the groundwater withdrawal permit world.
If they propose a groundwater withdrawal
that triggers the permit, they all have
to do the same impact analysis
management of of sediment transport
offsite underneath the DOT program
regardless of the type of structure
that's on. So, want to emphasize that
these are not programs that are that
change the criteria based on the
I'm just going to run through the
programs really quickly to make sure
everybody fully understands what these
programs obligate applications to.
Alteration of terrain permit program is
largely focused on land disturbance
changes in land grade. It's uh applies
to any site that proposes more than
100,000 square feet of land disturbance.
If you're in the shore protection zone,
50,000 square feet,
you have to put on record all of the
design elements during construction and
after construction
that show how you manage storm water and
she flow across the site. The
underground the underlying premise,
excuse me, to this permit program is
that you have to demonstrate that all of
the storm water that's infiltrating and
managed on site prior to development is
equal to all of the storm water that's
after development is equal to all the
storm water that infiltrates in the
ground prior to your disturbance. So if
you build a large big block structure
that occupies 80% of your site, you have
to take that infiltration
that would normally have happened prior
to that structure and make sure it
infiltrates on site through your
designed elements after disturbance.
Some of those design elements, you know,
typically are retention and detention
ponds, infiltration ponds, ponds, drain,
swella and okay.
Obviously, a very specific issue is
whether or not you locate this this
property on an area with a lot of
wetlands or next to a shoreland.
Obviously, wetland impact the premise in
that program is that you minimize
impacts the wetlands if you can on site
The idea is you minimize the impacts to
the habitat that that that wetland
supports. Additionally, both that set of
rules also allows you to provide some
sort of compensatory mitigation to
wetland impacts and there is a monetary
compensatory mitigation program now
called the ARM, the aquatic resource
mitigation program. um that big
developments can put money into and
impact the wetland on their site but
that money is redistributed in region to
replace the feature that they so
wetlands shoreland similarly you know if
you're within 250 ft of
water body that's subject to the shor
protection act you have to limit your
impact of vegetative buffer around that
feature so that nutrient retention and
sediment retention occurs
And you have to minimize impacts to the
shorelines. Again, the focal point being
maintaining the habitat in in and around
the shoreline environment
tend to be a hot button issue in some
some sectors and some towns and cities.
So, you need groundwater withdrawal,
large groundwater withdrawal permit in
the state. If you propose the removal of
57,600 gallons per day or more, that's
40.
In order to get that permit, it's a
relatively long and somewhat substantial
permitting process in this state
relative to the other New England
states. And you have to do uh you have
to propose a monitoring and a testing
program that monitors for the impacts of
those that that withdrawal on water
users in the area. Water uses being
natural water resources in private and
public.
The site that was proposed, you know,
the this concept discussion in Nigan was
previously a bottled water site that
triggered a lot of local interests.
very familiar with that site. It's got
available water resources on site but
there is built into the permitting
process need to assess impacts implement
mitigation for impacts if it occurs.
Then ultimately a permit is issued that
tracks the effects of that withdrawal
over time, reports those results to the
state so that we understand if impacts
occur that permit can be modified to
adjust
contain environmental triggers that
automatically kick in to reduce.
Likewise, there's a sister programs for
surface water and it's by our water
division and our wershed group.
Similarly, there's a trigger
requirement. You need a water quality
certificate from the state if you're
proposing removing more than 20,000
gallons a day from a surface water
state. It's about 14 gallons per minute.
Again, it's assessing impacts, but it
really assessing impacts to the to the
designated users of that service, the
habitat
with the recreation of those
people.
So that that assessment backs into the
minimum allowable withdrawal volumes you
can have from that surface of water
feature. The permits usually are
seasonal. They go up and down um based
on the types of flow conditions in the
river and permits usually withdraw per
withdraw
discharge world if an AI center has
their own need to discharge on their own
site they need to follow the discharge
rules and say if you discharge more than
20,000 gallons of paper on the ground or
to the ground of waste water you need to
get a discharge
requires you to assess them. The impacts
of loading waste water to the ground at
site, whether or not the water quality
of that that um discharge water needs to
be modified before discharge and it
establishes the monitoring network
around the discharge zone with annual
permitting, annual monitoring and annual
reporting. So that discharge permit
program is another one that might come
into play at the sites. Again,
it sister is the surface water distort
program which is not necessarily fully
administered by the state.
EPA nippies program has a role to play
there. State of New [clears throat]
Privacy to issue these permits
throughout them
those like the surface water withdrawal
program assess its impacts for instream
use
the impacts for those users
treatment that surface water that waste
water prior to disposal.
Um a lot of the permits that are
groundwater discharge permits for some
of the cities and towns here, Rochester,
Farmington,
Dober, they are both groundwater
discharge permit holders because of
their un wastewater routines and they
are these permit holders because they
all have outfalls directly into the
rivers that they
AI world really only the large hypers
scale or mega giga scale AI data centers
are largely built by surface water and
have surface water withdrawal permits
district. You'll have tons of those in
states. Many of those are
in the in the event that a that a site
has access to public utility water and
sewer then many of these perated
programs the AOT certainly applies but
groundwater withdrawal surface water
withdrawal discharge surface and
groundwork don't apply. It's it's up to
the discretion of the utility
what they can service with their current
infrastructure service capacity
and frequently those utilities there are
municipal utilities they aren't
necessarily
under the requirements of the state's PU
special municipal exemption and PUC
state regs for municipalities
uh provided they manage their rates
certain ways
And you know case of
AI data center moving into let's say an
industrial park
has an industrial park and do has an
industrial park. You know that they
would have to negotiate with the state
util city utilities for rates and usage.
those utilities to be established use
limits or restrictions or require
infrastructure upgrades be paid for by
the the user. So there's there's a
really an element of the global entity
playing a role in water demand and
respiratory management.
And if the utility can't service the
capacity demand from a large scale
facility,
it will need to develop additional
capacity either increase the surface
water withdrawal if it's a surface water
supply water utility or increase or add
groundwater sources if it's groundwater
supply. So there might be a domino
effect to the utility to develop
capacity that would be linked to the
groundwater withdrawal or
lastly you know these facilities
sometimes are not small
um touching on air discharge rules here
I'm not as familiar with air discharge
rules but there are most definitely air
discharge permits need for power
generation facilities ities in or
auxiliary boilers or emergency
generators at some of these larger
facilities because they absolutely need
power.
Think touched on the ISO discussion.
There is most definitely a nexus between
energy and water at these facilities.
They have to have water to manage heat
facilities. Those water that that
management system, cool towers,
chillers, circulator pumps, they all
demand a significant energy load. So
there's link between the two and cooling
towers and such may need their discharge
permits themselves. Usually the
discharge permits are modeling of the
air
particular map management things like
that.
So
last but not least there are other
related programs I have not target
program is becoming a real player at
some
west
program manages the generation of
hazardous waste and these facilities do
generate substantial amount of
electronic waste because they are
largely chipped. factories effectively
as chips burn out they need to be
replaced. So they they do generate
generate waste associated with their
operation that is all managed by the
states
federal
septic system world. It's largely an
issue with regards to operations and
staffing of these facilities. They're
going to they don't have city sewer
connection. They're going to need to get
rid of some domestic waste water. the
smaller AI plans which would probably be
something that's on the scale of what
talked about in Nottingham
the staffing for a size plant that size
could be between 10 and 50
water use registration and reporting
program anybody who uses more than
20,000 gallons a day that is withdraws
discharge transfers more than 20,000
gallons of water a day have to become a
registered water user in their metered
water use of the
every quarter for each month about 880
registered water users in this state.
And then the water conservation program
plan is a program that mandates that
facilities like these and other types of
facilities demonstrate the minimum water
efficient efficient water use standards.
Water conseration plan is reviewed by
the water conseration program through
inspected materials. So there are some
related programs. If you really want to
read lots about these programs, here are
the primary website websites for all
Um, what I take from your presentation
is that all the
resources and regulations cited in the
first slide could be
should be each community's land
management regulations. I mean, they're
there. They should even Middleton has
those on their site, right? So what dees
is doing then correct me is that it's
the responsibility of the community to
enforce those regulations. You're not a
data center
uh resource. You already have resources
that will
protect the environment. Not the
concept, not what it does, the
structure. Right.
Is that generally what BS does right
enforce is a big word
attorney means attorney or ace
pound enforce their building code
if an entity needs relief they go to the
okay
if it's in your rig that
their site planning rigs for instance or
or subdivision rags that know an
applicant shall obtain
permit from the operation of terrain
program related to land development and
they don't get
not the role of municipality to enforce
the groundwater withdrawal permits or
the surface water withdrawal permits the
elements of the AOP permit program in
There are state supreme court decisions
on some of those permit programs that
flatly call out that towns are preempted
from regulating those entities. The
states all
>> That's right. That's right. That's
>> go.
>> Hi, thank you for coming today. This is
obviously a growing discussion over the
next decade I'm sure. My question uh is
about groundwater mapping. What would
you assess our state
completeness state of completeness about
groundwater mapping? So towns like
Nottingham and in my case Bington, do we
actually understand what the groundwater
looks like? Capacity, size, boundaries,
all that. Are we up to speed in your
judgment or is that working?
>> Well,
I live in north and so this region, you
know, is largely covered by relatively
thin veneer of till about 16% of the
state. is river valleys that are filled
with sand and that's where most of the
large groundwater withdrawals are or our
municipality. Okay, or the golf courses
that people look to golf on or the stool
systems that are sto
groundwater mapping um a geologic issue
geology is a natural process. We get
most of our water in the state. Half of
us get our water from a public water
utility and the other half get our
water%
wells as far as groundwater mapping goes
magic map. So we do the state the
regional maps
the current current state of affairs is
that geologic survey has about 100% of
the state's surficial deposits match
which also has groundwater cap.
Um, usually when these groundwater
withdrawals are proposed, the very first
part of the requirements to develop a
hydro geologic conceptual model that
requires an applicant to review all
available information about groundwater
resources in the region
and evaluate what the conceptual flow
model for that region will likely be in
their withdrawal.
But there's no magic map to go to
understand everything because the nature
of
groundwater flows to a fracture network
really needs to be evaluated for the
pumping test and monitoring network that
area
would the is the expectation that center
that wants to locate that they would
conduct the groundwater mapping or your
shoes was available assuming there was
actually something available
>> they would have to submit an application
In fact, a licensed PG or PG
firm [clears throat]
consulting firm will work. Usually the
way it works is a consulting firm will
work off on their behalf hired by them
go through the peritting process
starting usually that's PGs and hybrid
geologists that develop these conceptual
models monitoring networks and testing
and you know they are licensed
professionals I am myself you know their
license speaks to their work so their
work has to be approved though by our
program by the
Um then
>> wondering if the permitting process is
accounting for the
increased demand for
you know data centers is a great
example. Um the increased load on the
the water systems the national water
systems that are not being recharged. We
still haven't recovered out last time I
checked. So can't make we can't just put
water back in the ground magically. So
is the permitting process adjusting for
that increased demand?
>> If you look through the slides, so
permit conditions continually contain
environmental triggers that require
reductions of volume for our big water
users, effectively for our golf courses
and nurseries that have these permits.
When we move into a drought, it's a it's
a specified level of drought for a
duration of time. They have to
subsequently and incrementally start
reducing him on water.
They lost $2 million in turf about 10
years ago in 2010 2012
because their permanent requirement
keeps me up at night. I don't know if it
does you as well. Um very concerned
about how often we have drop how how
we're going to adapt as we have more.
We're doing a great job with adding
housing. um live in the town of Lee. We
share water with Durham. Um we don't
always have a lot of control of what
Durham does, but we also will not have
as much water as there's more um water
being used. What are your concerns? What
do you wish we would do differently so
we could address?
>> Concerns is a big word. Um
so
being a hydraologist meologist have
spent some time out west school
we are fortunate in that we are
underwater rich company they get about a
meter of rain per year know and that is
a subsequent huge amount of water
relative to other
concerns you know my guess would over
time that AI data center issue the ISO
folks are still on
>> still
>> will not be a water issue will not be
water will not be the issue that that is
impacted the most by those data centers
it will be your interest
um and I say that because if you spend
any time looking hard at
what's available for information
uh there's technological adaptations
that already being rolled into some of
these bigger AI data centers by the
biggest players you gota
Amazon own the hyper and the giga scale
facilities
direct onchip cooling which is think
about most of these facilities they
initially built it was just air cooling
lot of air conditioning air blowing over
this the through the facility through
these water these radiator water coolers
that hold the water up the chillers and
then dump it into the ground.
There's a technological adaptation that
get rid of the air cooling and direct on
ship coolers like a little water jacket
wrapped around every single ship
efficient way cool
less less walls less water.
>> Is that the closed loop system? closed
loop something different closed loop
geothermal wells are being deployed at a
number of systems Wyoming system a state
that's very receptive data centers
closed loop geothermal wells are being
installed in some of these facilities
that that send the cooling water down
through
underground u tubes like an underground
radiator in build wells rock because the
the thermal reservoir capacity shallower
is huge can absorb heat and heat off
and that closed loop system can reduce
the bands facility like these facilities
by anywhere between 15 and 80%.
So that that is that is a subsequent
positive for the world of clean chip
cooling at some of these facilities.
Additionally, there's a lot of
manufacturers playing with submersible
chase. So you'll walk into one of these
data centers and it'll look like a big
pool. All the servers for water water
will be slowly circulating facility.
Again that's kind of a off offbrand
direct contact method that will
substantially reduce water facilities. I
think over time you'll see is these
technologies will allow these facilities
to keep cool.
So recently Google has really the fact
that they've converted some of their
existing facilities instead of using
virgin water to using reclaimed treated
waste water from the local wastewater
treatment plant. [clears throat]
you know, obviously those are areas that
are certified soon
purchase treating waste water.
So, you know that we do have a couple
players like that in the state that are
going to be claiming waste water
different parts of our data center but
for other uses. Um, we do have a
substantial amount of very large closed
loop geothermal well systems that say
already
hundreds to a thousand wells. Our
college can bring entirely over three
huge closing to your front city of
concrete building to the school that's
going to be the 100 well closer to your
firm well people are migrating towards
that technology to get off of fossil
fuel growing heat. [clears throat]
So it's it's not it is happening and
will happen to this industrial but what
it does do it modifies the lower
electrical load because those are
electric pumps that are static
mark.
So I imagine that other states that are
big into data centers like the
Mid-Atlantic State mentioned or like
California like all have their own
processes requirements like what we've
gone through here. So I guess what's
different about New Hampshire and like
why are they still going through even
though they have such major site impacts
in those states as well like
more robust? are there more waiverss
granted at the other in the other states
for these processes or
>> so you know I don't I don't really know
again sounds like someone initially
talked about the fact that you know
these are locations potentially are put
in place in areas where large
information fiber optic information
centers enter into the company the
country there are four or five big
states that like Virginia,
Arizona,
Wyoming, and California, but not all
California and Washington maybe and
there's a reason why it's on the coast.
some of these are on the coast
exceptionally
um you know I I don't know know some of
the Arizona facilities I know the
Wyoming facility they
are generating their own power site
massive solar array
some of the big big facilities
of the globe
sparsely states
nodes across the country where
might be just related to [clears throat]
possibility or trend might be offshore
submer submerged data centers. How would
that how would the state be thinking
about if should that start to come to
fruition? How would the state be
thinking about permitting? What are the
roles between local state?
>> You know that that's a complex kind of
issue. Wind is facing a lot of similar
issues. block island
service. You move farther off
of being a commission
issues relevantly.
Well,
you know, at the time
he's from my town.
comes [clears throat] in and needs a
variance. He comes in front of the
zoning board and gets it in five
minutes. And that is local nod to the
development.
Going back in time in history, that
facility in Dawningham, the prior
proposal has bought the water a zoning
board varian the very first part of
front end of that project in under four
minutes
was handed over to develop that site.
So then it speaks to
>> one question.
>> So legislation seems to be the next step
now that we've got the background of the
grid and the water and hydrarology side
of it. Um this group already knows that
water is my biggest bugaboo. um you
encouraged me with the new technology uh
with chip blankets and the closed loop
and all the rest of using less water
because yeah we may be water rich but
we're rich because of the water and so
we can't lose the entire economic driver
of the state to support data centers
necessarily.
So legislation town by town or region by
region, county by county, whatever it
is, state by state in some cases, um
seems to be the next step that we need
to take. I think what is clear at the
federal level
current administration
absolutely said that they're not
interested in regulating
used the federal legislation to be out
of the control of the AI AI sector you
know big advocates of this country
playing a major role as develop
those issues
telling people legislation what's
needed.
Seems like some states are acting pretty
quickly with banning legis legislation
that puts in place bans and those always
are hard.
So sure, legislation might need it,
but it's probably best done in a process
that's well thought out as opposed to
very kneejerky, very vanish.
I have a response to you as well. Um, at
the local level and regional level. So,
so the NHRPC is looking into this matter
and is is doing research coming out with
some recommendations for all the RPCs.
But in the meantime, if you're worried,
the issues that are being talked about
aren't limited to AI,
right? These are water usage issues.
These are power consumption issues that
would apply to any manufacturing site
comes into town potentially. So, if you
don't have something in your ordinance
that says, "Hey, if you use more than
20,000 gallons per day of water, you
need to use the uh some sort of or or
closed loop system or whatever or or
extras guidance on how to properly
manage that, then that's on you. That's
what you should really be looking at is
saying how how do we you know at what
point do we want to start putting in
these conservation and enforcing these
conservation mechanisms on the on the
larger sites.
>> Hey Jen, this Matt from Central I just
want to kind of piggyback off that. That
was a really good comment. Um I'm
working on as we go. I'm actually
sitting here marking up a draft
ordinance now for one of my towns and
that's kind of approach we've taken
looking at the water recharge issues
looking at just industrial right um
because you instead of it's that old
zoning adage of like you know targeting
a specific use versus targeting the
broader impact and that's exactly what
we're doing with with part of it I mean
sure we're working on definitions for
data centers things like that but that
idea of looking broadly at say take the
noise industrial noise at property lines
right like that that can be helpful but
I think I just agree with that idea of
looking at industrial uses generally
with water and air and things of that
nature. So yeah that that hit a court.
Thank you. [laughter]
>> Um yeah I think um for this discussion
and presentations um that did I was
thinking earlier when you were talking
about the groundwater and surface water
the gallons per day thresholds and I was
just cur and we can talk offline. I was
curious if those thresholds were um if
you know if those are based on
environmental factors or like what went
into picking those thresholds and then
how that might help the town the region
or the towns think about why thresholds
were set and then are there things
unique to our own environment or
reasoning to think about thresholds.
>> So surface water withdrawal threshold is
quite helpful to y
7,600 gallons per gallons per minute.
That comes from an evaluation done by
USGS in the mid 90s on sort of the
median size two subdivision
state across the state
assuming 150 gallons per day bedroom in
two and a half.
All the data from long subdivision built
to the state called small community
water system subdivision
15 50 home subdivision with two wells
that service all
those types of projects
smalliz
which is pretty low relative to the
state.
Massachusetts has a permit for 100,000
gallons per day. Okay. Six in Rhode
Island is pretty low 10,000 gallons.
It's so small they don't add any volume
and it's more or less fill out the forms
attach a check for $1,000 send it in
test.
So redemption process there's
opportunities for the public to
establish municipality to request
hearings
or written testimony periods and sending
comments about permanent testing
process.
for public
>> I just um Don used a very he has a
unique way of making phrases
and this phrase of uh we're rich because
of the water
is very True.
Uh Colin mentioned recent droughts.
We've been kind of on the edge this
year. Uh but in the past, we've seen a
lot of people that have their w their
wells have run out. They've had to dig
deeper. Um
in a state where we depend upon tourism
both for winter and summer. uh people
who ride cottages on lakes or on rivers.
Uh ski industry, they use water
resources for making their own snow. And
during winters when there's a drought,
we don't get snow all the time in all
parts of the state. I think what people
are worried about is their likelihood.
But I'm not worried about the golf
course. That's a luxury for people. I
It's a It's a business. It's a hardship
for the business, but for the average
citizen, that's a luxury. Um it's it's
recreation, of course, it is. Same with
schemes.
But when somebody's well run, that's a
necessity that they're being denied. And
it's not good enough to say the town
will provide you with bottled water.
That's a horrible situation when we get
to that point. Um
I just think that what people are
worried about are corporations with lots
of money pushing around their towns,
pushing around them.
And I think that was the case and that
was partly the response to the Baltimore
business that I'm really glad did not
come here. Um
that's what we're up against and
planning boards are up against that. You
know I s I've sat on my planning board
for I don't know how many years now and
people always say why did you approve
that? Why did you approve this or that?
They meet all the criteria. It's their
property.
Now when they meet all the criteria, all
all the conditions, how do you say no?
That's what people are worried about
that they don't have the financial
resources to fight back
because everything is centered around
rules and regulations. that if you meet
the rules and the regulations, it goes.
That's the problem that I see with this.
And and I think it's a huge problem here
in New Hampshire. Uh
corporations coming in pushing towns
around,
they win.
That's that's just my thought process on
it. is I don't I don't know how you
respond to even that. But what Don said
just is so rich because
we don't want to give that up.
>> Certainly another question there.
>> There isn't.
>> It's just my That's why I said
my view in the big picture of things.
the reflections on the slides.
Permits do do establish conditions.
Most of those conditions are based on an
impact evaluation for users and
resources
users and water resources and those
permits and permitting processes that
require mitigation of impacts if they
are observations
individuals like the individual talking
about
concept of being that that structure on
that property and not for an AI citizen.
So everybody has their perspectives on
you know what what individuals and
municipalities can do against
corporations but the corporation also
has to have a permit that meets the
criteria assesses impacts and mitigates
impacts do but you are right I'm sure
fortunate elements just like a lot of
the eastern Mississippi states
we get to use The water that crosses our
property is on our property below our
property. How you can't put five gallon
bucket in surface water in some states
unless you are you purchase the right to
do so. It is
by whoever owns that water it doesn't
work here
states you don't have that type of
water. Anybody own who owns land has a
use right to the groundwater or a use
right to the surface water
very few exceptions.
>> There was a question online from John
Rod about um
how does dees notify either SRPC or a
town if a permit application has been
submitted in our area or town of
interest.
So I did touch base with a few people. I
didn't know everybody's every permiting
program role when it comes to public
some feedback. So the groundwater
permiting process and applicant when
they send in the very first application
have to have has to send it to the
municipalities and what's called study
via certified mail return receipt and
they have to provide us those receipts
showing the dates that these entities
receive them. Those entities have 15
days. Many of them have 15 days to
request a hearing. We have to hold that
hearing within 30 days in their validity
to get oral testimony on the application
and then we hold a 45day brief test
after they close. So it's a very
involved process that notifies
municipalities
certified the application
notice the statute require will require
notification of any plan
service water withdrawal permit process
that's a 30-day online notice anybody
can submit application to a draft
service
um very few of The other permit programs
I talked about
surface water discharge.
Very few of them have comic.
Just real
>> quickly, can it be predicted where
they're going to want to site these
places, these data centers by the water
and the land?
I mean if I mean I'm sure they're
looking would have noticed
couple of regional discussions and folks
ISO
probably have caught some traffic about
Westfield Massachusetts
Westfield Air Force Base much like these
air force base for air force base now
national guard only most of them are air
force base is an industrial farm
I notice some of these AI data centers
discussed
um
agreeing to industrial.
>> Which feel like small towns in this
state
of [clears throat] nature of their town
areas in their town are more important
than other areas.
Maybe the best landing spot for these
data centers are in industrial parks
because people don't necessarily
understand.
>> Well, thank you, Mr. Roy.
So, we can do a real quick uh other
business slash commissioner round table
and then we'll that will wrap up today's
goodbye.
Sorry,
>> not it was just an an idea to think
about whether it's the planning
commission or the um these both of these
presentations were very educational and
lightning and I'm like scribbling notes
and trying to think about like what to
update my council on and like other um
and did want to throw up the idea of um
definitely sharing it sounds like
sharing the slides and like a packaged
email that would be really easy for us
to forward to others in our communities
andor if the presenters might consider
doing a like a short recording
um that could be shared more So you
don't have to come to a million
presentations but just like a short
recorded version of the slides that we
could share with others.
>> We'll check how the audio quality is on
recording.
>> Oh, this was
>> Yeah, if it is okay, we can post it on
our YouTube channel and have that
available. Don't be able to see
>> how it came through because we had a
couple hiccups there. But thank you.
>> [clears throat]
>> Second by All right. So Lindsay and all
in favor