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City of Lebanon, NH Live Meeting Stream

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have to measure in the study of the
impact fees and then we from there
calculate out uh what an appropriate
impact that a development would have.
Usually it's on a square footage basis.
Yeah, obviously residential development
which includes the school fee uh would
have a little higher rate than just
straight commercial development which
would not include a school fee. So
that's a little bit about where we're
at, but the short answer is we can put
it into the mix. Um, but we're going to
need to find some resources to pay for
the consultant.
>> Have you um have you considered doing
your own peer group analysis of what
other cities which I've done a I've done
a small study myself.
>> The the we can do peer group but it it's
the study is based fully and completely
upon Lebanon's case. It has nothing to
do with any other city. So it's and the
study is premised off of what
investments we've made as a city. Um and
and the other part of it is is the to do
this inhouse. Um while we could have the
expertise and develop that expertise to
do it, I think it would be from a
liability perspective better to have
that liability rest with the consultant,
not with the someone from the city
staff. if this is gotten wrong. Uh and
that's been the advantage that uh Bruce
Mayberry, who did our work before, he
has defended his his findings in court
cases when a a for lack of better terms,
someone who may be obliged to pay a
fairly large impact fee for a very large
project takes exception to the numbers
and all of a sudden we have a lawsuit.
We want to make sure that we have
someone who can testify and defend that
study on behalf of the city and protect
that liability that gets created. Um
Bruce's testimony uh and this is where
his value really comes from. He is
battle tested as they say. He's been
through court. He's been through those
uh hearings and he is his his studies
have been upheld in by by the judiciary
branch in New Hampshire. And that that's
part of the mix which is liability
limitation. We don't want to take
liability when we don't. While my staff
is perfectly capable of doing a lot of
things, sometimes liability mitigation
is just you want to have that expert do
that work.
>> Okay.
>> Go ahead.
>> Quick question. Does the planning board
have authority to wave impact fees? And
if so, do they do that? It's it the way
the the process current we just rewrote
it a couple years ago because we wanted
to make it closer to what the state the
the current law states technically you
can go to under a category of if you
have a constitutional right that is
being impuged you can make a case to the
planning board to wave uh impact fees.
We have only on two occasions had a case
in front of the planning board. On
neither case has the wave has a waiver
been granted. Um, one of the two was
given a payment plan. Uh, it was a
startup business and and it was just
sort of a it was a difficult technical
change of use. And what triggers an
impact fee on the commercial side is a
change of use. So in this particular
case, it was going from an industrial
use to a commercial use and that caused
the fee to be applicable. It was a
startup business and we gave them uh a
payment plan and they've been operating
under that and taking care of their
bargain and doing what we do. you know,
recently been once a month we get a
check from them and and send it
downstairs to finance. But the other
case that was in front of us was um the
the planning board did not agree with
the the applicant and and did not offer
to to offer a plan or to um abate any of
the fee. So, it it does happen from time
to time. It's pretty rare. the
circumstances have to be
very unique in order to allow and I I
don't see the only other exceptions to
the impact fees that are currently in
the law is you can wave school impact
fees if you have uh apartments that are
of a certain size and smaller the the
thinking that an efficiency apartment is
unlikely to have children that have that
will attend the schools uh that live
there. Um, and our statistics actually
do pan that out that the smaller
apartments typically don't have kids.
Uh, and then if it's a 55 plus
community, uh, they're highly unlikely
to have children that are in the school
school district. Uh, but yet you still
have other impact fees that would still
be required under under um, uh, both
circumstances because police, fire, and
and general infrastructure is still
going to be impacted by an an additional
use. So, it's reasonable to say that all
of the
most of the development on Heater Road,
all of those apartment buildings I just
drove from the hospital this morning,
most of them are paying recreation,
police, fire, maybe not schools,
>> maybe not school, depending on the size
of the department. And that was we've
tightened the language in that area in
recent time. Uh it was previous to that
if it was 500 square feet and smaller it
was an automatic. I think there was
actually a period of time where they
they may not have had to have paid any
impact fees at all, but we've tighten
the that tightened the language in that
in that area to specifically in response
to some of the smaller apartment units
that we were seeing built. Um, we've
also uh there's a couple of loopholes
that that get that that we've closed,
for lack of better terms, in the last
couple of zoning cycles. One of them is
I call the basement loophole. Uh prior
to the last cycle, if you finished a
basement, it wasn't included in the
impact fees. Um we basically said, well,
basement square footage does count
because often times that's where it's a
walkout basement. It's a finished space.
It should count as a part of a bedroom.
>> I think that's that's good information.
I think it's great that you're
tightening or looking at it carefully. I
know we're the city, but you know, we
are all one city and we should be
looking out for the schools as well. But
the planning board represents the
schools as well.
>> Yeah. And I think that is a function
while we we design the fee, we collect
the fee, it's a pass through city
council, I believe once a quarter will
will distribute the money and and again
it often times the numbers are very
variable. They're up and down. Um but
you get a big project that comes
through. The impact fee is not due at
the time the building permit is pulled.
The impact fee is due prior to
certificate of occupancy. So it comes
along a little later in the process. Um,
but like take for example the 402 Mount
Sport Road project. You got 204 units up
there. Um, when they're ready to pay
their impact fee, I'm sure we'll all
hear hear the earthquake uh when when
that check lands upstairs. Um, it GHMC
also pays impact fees for their the work
that they do. Uh, in addition to
building uh building fees, uh, building
permit fees. Um we we recently got a
fairly sizable check from them from from
some projects that we were able to get
to final sea. So uh it can be a
substantial amount of money um that that
comes through this this but again it's
highly variable.
>> Thanks Tim. Um did uh did you say Bruce
is the only one that's
>> Yeah, he was
>> that does this.
>> Yeah. and he he's one of those the the
ancient mariner of the planning circles
of New England and he is officially Tim
actually tried to one more time Kenya
and the email bounced he's done
>> you know so he's like in in his 70s and
and I think he's he's ready to hang up
not not ready he has hung up the spikes
Tim has a lead on another consultant
though so
>> somebody somebody has stepped into
Bruce's shoes
>> and do you find like do you find the
studies they do to the like are you
finding the fees you're collecting are
paying for the growth that we're
experiencing?
>> Yeah, I think they and I think in recent
studies, the most recent one that's from
three years ago, we were actually able
to use we we worked with the school
district and said, "Can we don't care
what what their names are. We don't care
how can you give us a list of the
location of where your students live?"
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And then we were able to take that data
and use our own data to be able to uh
you know establish statistical
probabilities as to whether a particular
type of housing is going to produce kids
that are going to the school district or
not. And that made our our study hyper
accurate. Uh oftent times they use sort
of generalized numbers uh to to to
estimate that. And because we were able
to work with the schools to get that
data directly, it's helped help helped
us focus our our numbers. I think the
other piece is is because we use a
retroactive, we're only using projects
that are already in the ground and have
already been built. We obviously the
financial side of it. We're not working
off of estimates and what could be.
We're working off of what has been built
and what it costs to do it.
>> Yeah. So the I mean the goal right is to
collect the collect for any unforeseen
growth or for foreseen growth.
>> Think of it in terms of like the the
fire station, right? Yeah. Obviously the
the new fire station slightly bigger.
It's got a little more features. It's
got a little more capacity. The doors
are taller. So the fire engines actually
fit inside. Separation of of of
contaminated and and and living
quarters. It's bigger. And part of its
being bigger than what it was previously
there is that increment that allows for
growth. And I think that's where the
study really has to focus and say we had
a,000 foot fire station. Now we have a
1500 foot fire station. That 500 square
f feet of growth. Part of that is is um
invested. It's an investment made by the
current taxpayers that needs to be paid
back in the form of an impact fee for
the people that are proposing to grow
the community. And I think that's the
essence of what the impact fee is. So
when you get into it, okay, the first
thousand ft at sunk cost, we have to
have that no matter what we do. Of that
500, maybe a hundred of it is growth
that occurred that causes to have to
have a new fire station. The other 400
we can bill for as a part of the impact
fee. And that's a study from that's what
Bruce's study. I guarantee you if you
want to fall asleep quickly, pick that
study up. It's a sure it's it's a it's
it's a real page turner, I'll tell you.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'll leave that to Jame.
>> Yeah.
So like on the fire uh fire department
department breakout would the study have
used the union's projection that we need
16 more firefighters or would they have
used something more reasonable
>> from a budgeting? This is only
infrastructure that's involved. So I
think from an operational perspective it
doesn't get into that part of the
equation. And I I think I would say
number two things. It's infrastructure
only. It's physical world and and so
operations is is a different question.
Um the other piece of that puzzle is if
if the fire if say the fire union says
we need 60 more firefighters, I would
argue that even if we could account for
that growth with the impact fee um which
we can't that we should not count it
until those people are actually
>> FTEES.
uh just from the standpoint of uh you
you you have a bre you look to the past
not to the future because that future
risk in involves me having to write
checks back to people and I I don't want
to do that.
>> Right. This is uh from the auditor
perspective. So has it has the power of
the the purse always been with planning
as far as impact fee?
>> It's it's statutoily laid out that way.
Uh, and I think it it goes back to it's
an homage to the the towns as opposed to
the cities. You know, there's a lot of
things. The CIP is another thing that
the planning board controls the initial
CIP list. It goes back to how smaller
towns function where you don't
necessarily have full-time staff. You
don't have as much resources to pull
from. And the and that that planning
board becomes really a a a thing a way
for the community. It's the the location
where hey, we need a new bridge. We need
a road. We need to fix a bridge. Those
sorts of questions can politically be
answered by citizens uh in the absence
of having sort of staff support. Here we
have we've got Jay and his crew that can
kind of answer those questions and
manage those projects for us. In the
smaller towns, planning boards serve
that function. So, it's really it's it's
the the law has been that way, you know,
for a very long time in New Hampshire. I
I think you could make a credible
argument that in some places that the
planning board ought not have that
power, but in the end that's where the
the our friends in conquered have it
placed. So we deal with what they ask us
to do.
>> Just to follow up, it's so do you wave
the fee or does it come to the planning
committee for their approval?
>> Um if there is there's three
opportunities for an administrative
waiver to occur. One is if there's a
certain size apartment, so it's less
than a certain size. One is if it's less
than if it's a 55 or older community, so
it's a it's by design a senior
community, there's a waiver that can be
offered there. Um, but if there is any
discretion whatsoever,
there's not an administrative power in
the in the ordinance for the zoning
official to wave the fee, that rests
with the planning order. So if there's
any question and and if I as the person
who would make the determination um if I
had any question whatsoever, I would
just say you got to take it to the
planning board and ask them. Uh I don't
like making discretionary decisions,
especially when it comes to that type
what could be that size of of of impact
fee.
>> Um as far as projects going on, I I saw
the brickyard feasibility and the impact
on police and fire. What size of project
do you require that for? Like was it for
the foundry street or for the Merrick uh
projects? Do you require that?
>> Each of those projects and you have to
go back to the original planning
approvals and and oftentimes what
happens is an impact fee schedule at the
time the planning board approves the
project will be fixed into the project.
So as we move forward like the
brickyard's fee structure is fixed under
the under the current cycle but as
changes occur.
So in in other words if a loophole gets
closed it may not impact an existing
approved project uh you want to have
certainty for the developer. So you
don't want to have hey we're going to
retroactively come back and say we're
going to double the impact fees on the
brickyard. that that maybe politically
make us feel good to do, but from a from
a developer perspective, they have to
have a solid financial model to to to
decide whether they're going to invest
in our community. So, the planning board
fixes the the impact fee schedule at the
time their approval occurs and then we
work with that throughout the process.
So, Brickyard has a fixed impact fee
right now and yes, they will pay impact
fees based on the schedule that was in
place at the time that their approval
occurred and as well will the other the
other Mount support road projects.
>> Yeah. So, we have a couple of new ones
that are come that are brewing that are
coming up to planning board approval.
They will have a different impact fee
schedule than the 402 Mount Road project
or the or the the previously built uh
versions. Uh so as as I said, we've been
tightening that 500 square foot loophole
that that's been kind of revised in a
way where only school can come out as
opposed to all impact fees coming out.
So we've tightened it a little bit, but
each project has its own fee schedule
and it sticks with the project for the
life cycle of the of the the project. Um
it you may you may run into an odd one
that happens from time to time which is
one of the issues with River Park
actually and I don't hate to bring up a
bad subject in from my perspective but
they they will not pay impact fees in
River Park at all for any development
that they do because the planning board
waved their impact fees on their
approvals which is probably one of the
reasons why they've fought so hard to
keep those approvals in place. So
effectively that there's no toll that
the city will gain from that development
because the planning board when they
approved the project in 2010
uh said you don't have to pay impact
fees.
>> Why did you do you have any background
in why that decision was made?
>> I I don't pretend to understand the
decision-m that occurred at the time. I
just know that I I have a written
decision that was says you shall not pay
impact fees and that was the the the the
planning board's decision
and their their current they have about
a year uh before their the planning
board gave them an extension. So there
is a planning board approval that's in
place for that development and it will
continue to be in place for they have
another year in which to to begin
construction.
highly litigated topic.
>> Any other questions for Nate?
>> Very informative. Thank you for your
time.
>> Thanks.
>> Appreciate the time.
>> I'll turn it over to Jay.
Do you guys need anything else? I'm
going to take my take my lead. Thanks
everybody.
>> Actually, if you want to take it out of
order, you can take Jay so he can do his
presentation and then move along if you
like.
>> Yeah. Why don't we do that, Jay?
>> Need
some help from a techsavvy friend.
Get this.
Well, um well, we're setting up
last uh last year's uh Jay presented um
paving and the consequences if we reduce
some of our paving and u I thought it
was prettyformational
and then further research I've looked at
other cities paving management
schedulescl including Dober and
Portsmith tried to get Kees. Um but it's
I um I find this a critical part of this
year's budget with um it's our
infrastructure that I think is
deteriorating at some point. I'm not
spending, as you know, I'm conservative
and don't like spending money, but I
think we have to take a look at paving
pretty hard and repairs of of our road
systems. So,
>> um, thank you very much. I appreciate
that. Jay Carelli, public works
director. Just I'd like to, uh, share a
couple slides with you. A lot of which
I've shared over the years, last few
years with the city council and, um,
other boards and committees and also
some that I borrowed from uh, Tsquare,
who's our our state um, educational
resource for pavement and and things of
that nature.
And
it's my very uh
detailed opening slide. I just do I have
control or no. Okay. So this is just um
our road network to get started. We have
92 miles of paved centerline roads, 8
miles of gravel roads. our average um
PCI